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From Bill Moran <wmo...@potentialtech.com>
Subject Re: [users@httpd] Apache has FrontPage Server Installation
Date Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:09:23 GMT
David wrote:
> Hello !
> 
> Many thanks for your insightful elaboration to move away from FrontPage
> as a web development tool. 
> 
> Frontpage is easy to understand and easy to use. I do enjoy the use of
> FrontPage for its ease of use and most importantly to me, I find it very
> easy to understand the software ( the use of it, that is). It is
> intended as a statement of opinion ; but not expressly represent a
> statement of fact or information about FP's capability in their HTML
> generation. Anyway, thanks for the tip and write-up on FP's html
> generation, will keep that in mind when I look at their HTML codes.
> 
> Having said that, I next wonder if there is a need to use these web
> developers at all, since most of you seem to purport the idea of
> hand-coding instead of web "IDEs". I am pretty new to web development
> still. What approach should a web hobbyist take when developing his
> site? When should he hand-code the pages, when should he use web
> development softwares like DreamWeaver ( considering most of you are
> already ? 

The biggest problem I know of (with ALL graphical web design tools) is
that not all browsers display a particular page the same.  This is less
of a problem than it was a few years ago, but still a concern.  The
upshot being that _any_ graphical design tool is geared toward a single
browser, and other browsers will probably display the page slightly
different.

With this in mind, I use nedit (an excellent all-purpose text editor
for Unix-like systems) and manually create the HTML, while viewing
the results of my work in Mozilla.  Since I work in FreeBSD, I have
to move to a different computer to see how it looks in IE - if you're
using Windows you can run both IE and Mozilla/Netscape at the same
time.  Also, I've found Crimson Editor to be a good text editor for
Windows.  While it's not my favorite, Bluefish seems to be very
popular as an editor for people who only do HTML: it has quick
buttons that automate things such as creating tables and embedding
images.

I have Apache installed on my workstation, so I can view the result
of my work easily, prior to uploading to my hosting provider.

I use PHP and CSS extensively, as it makes it extremely easy to
maintian a consistent look/feel across an entire set of pages.  These
would probably be considered advanced techniques, though.

Every site I've done for the past 6 years has been done with basically
this same technique.  Unfortunately, some of the best are on the Bank
One Intranet, and thus not accessible by the public.

Hope this helps.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leif W [mailto:warp-9.9@usa.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:14 AM
> To: users@httpd.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [users@httpd] Apache has FrontPage Server Installation ?
> 
> My $0.02.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David" <amdawong@starhub.net.sg>
> To: <users@httpd.apache.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 12:55 PM
> Subject: RE: [users@httpd] Apache has FrontPage Server Installation ?
> 
> 
> 
>>Dear Bill,
>>
>>Perhaps you are right. However, you have to agree to a certain extent 
>>that FrontPage is really a good starting point for most amateur web 
>>hobbyist. I am one. Frontpage is easy to understand and easy to use.
> 
> 
> By this excuse or reasoning, any GUI program may be a good starting
> point, to generate some code, and then look at the code.  But why not
> use something like DreamWeaver?  Anyways, by choosing FP, it's maybe an
> easy place for you to start, but IMHO it's like a crutch which easily
> turns into a ball and chain, keeping you from learning anything of
> substance, like CGI programming for simple forms processing using Perl
> or PHP.  And by the way, I leanred HTML code by viewing source on web
> pages, copying sections, pasting into emacs (later in vi, NotePad or
> TextPad or UltraEdit when in win-land). Basic theme: a plain-text editor
> is ALL YOU NEED, and in fact should be REQUIRED to learn HTML properly.
> You'll make mistakes and LEARN from them.
> :-)
> 
> All these "server extensions" are doing is stuff you can handle with
> Perl or PHP (or shell script or TCL or Python or Java or C or C++), and
> you don't need them.  Even if you want to develop in Front Page
> initially (yikes! it makes SCARY code), the best technique is by
> tweaking the code, looking in the browser and taking note of what
> changed.  You can "rip the guts" out of the HTML FORM, and just change
> the NAME attributes and the ACTION and METHOD attributes, and point it
> to your own script.  It's fairly easy once you get the hang of it.  You
> could look for tutorial sites from Google.  I could even write a VERY
> SIMPLE example (off list) and show you, as a place to get started.
> 
> 
>>More of a concern to me is that security of web servers running 
>>frontpage server extensions. I understand from previous discussions
> 
> that
> 
>>Apache by far is one of the most reliable web servers around.
>>
>>I would like to know if installing IIS ( which is required if I want
> 
> to
> 
>>use FrontPage Server Extensions,FPSE) and subsequently installing FPSE
> 
> 
>>will affect the security of my server - specifically more susceptible
> 
> to
> 
>>hacker attacks ?
> 
> 
> If security is your major concern then I can't think you'd spend any
> time considering IIS.  You'd probably be infected within a week and
> spewing out attacks on other computers, not to mention probably root
> compromised within a few months.  Unless you're planning to stay awake
> night and day, update all those hotfixes as soon as they come out, i.e.
> LONG BEFORE they find themselves on the windows update page, if you can
> deal with security holes that go for months unfixed, and can do without
> the excellent Apache Users support of a mailing list and accompanying
> archives and online documentation and community, then by all means go
> over to IIS.
> 
> Leif
> 
> 
>>Many thanks for your time and attention.
>>
>>Warmest Regards
>>David
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Bill Moran [mailto:wmoran@potentialtech.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 12:07 AM
>>To: users@httpd.apache.org
>>Subject: Re: [users@httpd] Apache has FrontPage Server Installation ?
>>
>>David wrote:
>>
>>>Hi guys,
>>>
>>>Recently I created a forum website running on my Apache HTTP Server.
>>>
>>>All was well and fine I designed and implemented the website on my 
>>>computer. When I mount it on the apache server and do a test run, 
>>>problems occur.
>>>
>>>"
>>>1. FrontPage Run-Time Component Page
>>>You have submitted a form or followed a link to a page that requires
> 
> a
> 
>>>web server and the FrontPage Server Extensions to function properly.
> 
> 
>>>This form or other FrontPage component will work correctly if you 
>>>publish this web to a web server that has the FrontPage Server 
>>>Extensions installed. 1.1 Click the <Back> arrow to return to the 
>>>previous page. "
>>>
>>>Any idea how can I go round this problem ?
>>
>>2 choices (if you want to continue using Apache):
>>
>>1. Use something other than Fronpage to build your web page 
>>(recommended,
>>    since Frontpage creates web pages that are standards-broken
> 
> anyway)
> 
>>2. Install one of the Frontpage modules to Apache.  There are two that
>>    I'm aware of, there may be more.  A search on google will be very
>>    helpful.
>>
>>The third choice would be abandon Apache and use Microsoft IIS, but I 
>>wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.


-- 
Bill Moran
Potential Technologies
http://www.potentialtech.com


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