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From "Jack L. Stone" <>
Subject Re: [users@httpd] Apache has FrontPage Server Installation
Date Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:24:05 GMT
At 10:21 AM 9.17.2003 -0400, Bill Moran wrote:
>Jack L. Stone wrote:
>> TopPost (in interest of leaving reference to counterpoints below)
>> David: We have been using FP with FPSE since early 1997 to produce a large
>> online Technical magazine published monthly in 186 countries with 60,000
>> readers. Without FP we would have to add more people to do the same
>> enourmous amount of work for the layout of text and graphics. And those
>> monthly deadlines keep coming! In 7 years, we haven't missed a deadline.
>> I cringe at the thought of doing this with any other editor and certainly
>> not with a text editor. That might be okay at sites where the content
>> rarely changes.
>> On very rare occassions, we will revert to the "html view" to eliminate
>> something contrary, but that's about all.
>> My advice to those who are horrified by the code underneath -- don't look!
>> I can remember when I HAD to look at the code view for Worderfect for DOS
>> to make some necessary changes -- I'm so glad those days are gone. I'm more
>> interested in production of the documents than the code underneath. My
>> readers are only interested in the top view and what it says and most would
>> not know one code from another.
>> If one is a code person, then I understand the interest. But, you would
>> need to have a lot of time on your hands. Probably it's pretty ugly
>> underneath MS WORD, but it does the job for me now. If something better
>> comes along, I'll choose that.
>> Just my 4 cents.....
>My response to this:
>1) You could probably cut your bandwidth in half if you used something other
>    than FrontPage.  This would benefit both you and your customers.
>2) You're using lousy technology to accomplish what you need.  Why not build
>    a database that imports the articles and generates HTML from a template?
>    That would eliminate any dependence on FrontPage.  And it would be easier
>    to manage as well.  Having such a system would probably further reduce
>    the number of people required, and make it even easier to make your
>    deadlines.
>3) To each his own.
>4) Are you serious?  What sites are these?
>5) The "don't look" approach you take is ridiculous, and is the exact cause
>    of so many of the problems on the Internet that people don't seem to
>    have a clue how to fix.  If they would just look, they _could_ fix the
>    problem, but Microsoft has taught them _not_ to look.  Yes, I name
>    Microsoft specifically, because it's their "you shouldn't have to
>    understand how it works" philosophy that is causing much of the problem.

Bill: I knew my response would be unpopular, but I felt there should be
some more "balance" for David and that he should know there are some other
views from a user based on one who has an investment at risk. It's not my
job nor desire to try and change minds -- just MHO to which one is entitled.

Template!!!! Don't sell me short as have not thought of those to the extent
possible along with all the other tricks one learns over 7 years of
mastering the production of a document equal to apprx 200+ -page book each
and every month (Plus, other books -- we've been a publisher of Tech mags &
books since 1988 and were one of the first to produce a magazine by

Moreover, every article is unique and literally a work of art in its
presentation in order to keep a dry Tech magazine interesting. Yeah, sure
-- a template.

Database!!! We receive articles from all around the world with each one
being in radically different formats and levels of ability to speak and
write English.

Such suggestions are oversimplified without knowledge of the details.

Call it lousy if you wish, but we are successful as an online magazine that
gets paid for subscriptions and we have some of the most critical readers
in existence: Scientists, Engineers, Academics (almost every important
University is among the readers), research labs (yeah, Los Alamos too)
militaries of the various countries. I doubt if a single one of these very
bright technically readers know or care what editor we use -- the magazine
just needs to be there on time. We haven't missed a deadline in 7 years!!

You suggest a substantial "make over" to our present very efficient system
just to eliminate our "dependence" on FrontPage. I don't consider FP
addictive at all -- I just said before, I will switch when there is
something better -- not just because it happens to be MS. All things must
be considered, not just resentment or because of ugly code -- most of all,
production methods to meet the obligations of a business that must meet one
single principle:

-- income must exceed expenses! If it doesn't work that way, the code or FP
of how pretty doesn't matter.

This is just one site which has had nearly 3 million visits from readers....

I'm not interested in fighting over this and I belong to this valuable list
to learn. And, on occasion, I do learn something and will contribute when I
feel I can help.


Best regards,
Jack L. Stone,

SageOne Net

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