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From "Jack L. Stone" <jackst...@sage-one.net>
Subject Re: [users@httpd] Apache has FrontPage Server Installation
Date Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:58:40 GMT
TopPost (in interest of leaving reference to counterpoints below)

David: We have been using FP with FPSE since early 1997 to produce a large
online Technical magazine published monthly in 186 countries with 60,000
readers. Without FP we would have to add more people to do the same
enourmous amount of work for the layout of text and graphics. And those
monthly deadlines keep coming! In 7 years, we haven't missed a deadline.

I cringe at the thought of doing this with any other editor and certainly
not with a text editor. That might be okay at sites where the content
rarely changes.

On very rare occassions, we will revert to the "html view" to eliminate
something contrary, but that's about all.

My advice to those who are horrified by the code underneath -- don't look!
I can remember when I HAD to look at the code view for Worderfect for DOS
to make some necessary changes -- I'm so glad those days are gone. I'm more
interested in production of the documents than the code underneath. My
readers are only interested in the top view and what it says and most would
not know one code from another.

If one is a code person, then I understand the interest. But, you would
need to have a lot of time on your hands. Probably it's pretty ugly
underneath MS WORD, but it does the job for me now. If something better
comes along, I'll choose that.

Just my 4 cents.....

At 03:31 PM 9.17.2003 +0800, David wrote:
>
>Hello !
>
>
>Many thanks for your insightful elaboration to move away from FrontPage
>as a web development tool. 
>
>Frontpage is easy to understand and easy to use. I do enjoy the use of
>FrontPage for its ease of use and most importantly to me, I find it very
>easy to understand the software ( the use of it, that is). It is
>intended as a statement of opinion ; but not expressly represent a
>statement of fact or information about FP's capability in their HTML
>generation. Anyway, thanks for the tip and write-up on FP's html
>generation, will keep that in mind when I look at their HTML codes. 
>
>Having said that, I next wonder if there is a need to use these web
>developers at all, since most of you seem to purport the idea of
>hand-coding instead of web "IDEs". I am pretty new to web development
>still. What approach should a web hobbyist take when developing his
>site? When should he hand-code the pages, when should he use web
>development softwares like DreamWeaver ( considering most of you are
>already ? 
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Leif W [mailto:warp-9.9@usa.net] 
>Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:14 AM
>To: users@httpd.apache.org
>Subject: Re: [users@httpd] Apache has FrontPage Server Installation ?
>
>My $0.02.
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "David" <amdawong@starhub.net.sg>
>To: <users@httpd.apache.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 12:55 PM
>Subject: RE: [users@httpd] Apache has FrontPage Server Installation ?
>
>
>> Dear Bill,
>>
>> Perhaps you are right. However, you have to agree to a certain extent 
>> that FrontPage is really a good starting point for most amateur web 
>> hobbyist. I am one. Frontpage is easy to understand and easy to use.
>
>By this excuse or reasoning, any GUI program may be a good starting
>point, to generate some code, and then look at the code.  But why not
>use something like DreamWeaver?  Anyways, by choosing FP, it's maybe an
>easy place for you to start, but IMHO it's like a crutch which easily
>turns into a ball and chain, keeping you from learning anything of
>substance, like CGI programming for simple forms processing using Perl
>or PHP.  And by the way, I leanred HTML code by viewing source on web
>pages, copying sections, pasting into emacs (later in vi, NotePad or
>TextPad or UltraEdit when in win-land). Basic theme: a plain-text editor
>is ALL YOU NEED, and in fact should be REQUIRED to learn HTML properly.
>You'll make mistakes and LEARN from them.
>:-)
>
>All these "server extensions" are doing is stuff you can handle with
>Perl or PHP (or shell script or TCL or Python or Java or C or C++), and
>you don't need them.  Even if you want to develop in Front Page
>initially (yikes! it makes SCARY code), the best technique is by
>tweaking the code, looking in the browser and taking note of what
>changed.  You can "rip the guts" out of the HTML FORM, and just change
>the NAME attributes and the ACTION and METHOD attributes, and point it
>to your own script.  It's fairly easy once you get the hang of it.  You
>could look for tutorial sites from Google.  I could even write a VERY
>SIMPLE example (off list) and show you, as a place to get started.
>
>> More of a concern to me is that security of web servers running 
>> frontpage server extensions. I understand from previous discussions
>that
>> Apache by far is one of the most reliable web servers around.
>>
>> I would like to know if installing IIS ( which is required if I want
>to
>> use FrontPage Server Extensions,FPSE) and subsequently installing FPSE
>
>> will affect the security of my server - specifically more susceptible
>to
>> hacker attacks ?
>
>If security is your major concern then I can't think you'd spend any
>time considering IIS.  You'd probably be infected within a week and
>spewing out attacks on other computers, not to mention probably root
>compromised within a few months.  Unless you're planning to stay awake
>night and day, update all those hotfixes as soon as they come out, i.e.
>LONG BEFORE they find themselves on the windows update page, if you can
>deal with security holes that go for months unfixed, and can do without
>the excellent Apache Users support of a mailing list and accompanying
>archives and online documentation and community, then by all means go
>over to IIS.
>
>Leif
>
>> Many thanks for your time and attention.
>>
>> Warmest Regards
>> David
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Moran [mailto:wmoran@potentialtech.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 12:07 AM
>> To: users@httpd.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [users@httpd] Apache has FrontPage Server Installation ?
>>
>> David wrote:
>> > Hi guys,
>> >
>> > Recently I created a forum website running on my Apache HTTP Server.
>> >
>> > All was well and fine I designed and implemented the website on my 
>> > computer. When I mount it on the apache server and do a test run, 
>> > problems occur.
>> >
>> > "
>> > 1. FrontPage Run-Time Component Page
>> > You have submitted a form or followed a link to a page that requires
>a
>> > web server and the FrontPage Server Extensions to function properly.
>
>> > This form or other FrontPage component will work correctly if you 
>> > publish this web to a web server that has the FrontPage Server 
>> > Extensions installed. 1.1 Click the <Back> arrow to return to the 
>> > previous page. "
>> >
>> > Any idea how can I go round this problem ?
>>
>> 2 choices (if you want to continue using Apache):
>>
>> 1. Use something other than Fronpage to build your web page 
>> (recommended,
>>     since Frontpage creates web pages that are standards-broken
>anyway)
>> 2. Install one of the Frontpage modules to Apache.  There are two that
>>     I'm aware of, there may be more.  A search on google will be very
>>     helpful.
>>
>> The third choice would be abandon Apache and use Microsoft IIS, but I 
>> wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
>>
>> --
>> Bill Moran
>> Potential Technologies
>> http://www.potentialtech.com
>>
>>
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Best regards,
Jack L. Stone,
Administrator

SageOne Net
http://www.sage-one.net
jackstone@sage-one.net

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