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From Tony Stevenson <>
Subject Re: [Issue] External links @ the wiki, aka pagechange wars
Date Thu, 24 May 2007 23:31:23 GMT
See my inline comments below, but I feel that these are the points that 
have been raised today.

1)  We don't want you to link to your materials from the wiki. 
2)  We feel that some of the content could do with tweaking to support 
well established best-practices

Next Steps:
1)  If you are willing to place your material in the wiki, published 
under the Apache license then please do so, where it will be reviewed 
(see further down)
2)  Stop linking to material on your site, rather add it to the wiki (as 
3)  We can all move on, and improve the wiki as a whole, but best of all 
we can stop this already exhaustive thread  :)

Webmaster wrote:
>> The trouble in this particular case is that the contributor 
>> in question writes articles that are misleading or completely 
>> wrong, and appears to be unaware of the fact that he is being 
>> misleading and wrong. I'm not sure if he's genuinely trying 
>> to be helpful, or merely trying to inflate his google ranking 
>> by creating pages that link back to his site. 
> If I am misleading or wrong in any way shape or form than it is absolutely
> accidental.   Instead of repeatedly telling me how bad my contributions are,
> and deleting anything I try to contribute, why not just point out WHERE I am
> wrong, WHERE I am misleading, that way we can work together and add valuable
> content to the wiki.  Not to mention I can revise the articles on my blog,
> which means your feedback will be helping thousands of newbie Apache users.
>> Either way, the 
>> content that he produces does not add substantial value, nor 
>> do the pages to which he links, and often his content 
>> actively promotes practices that are discouraged as being 
>> less-than-best-practice.
> I don't care if you are the top Apache Guru on the planet, the fact is that
> thousands of people DO think that my articles add substantial value, and if
> you really feel my stuff is that bad its your problem, not the content.
> Otherwise I would encourage you to make suggestions, point out errors,
> highlight alternatives, illustrate best-practices, instead of just talking
> about how bad my contributions are.
It's not that the content is bad particularly, it is that they don't 
follow established best practices.  This can then be misleading for 
people who do not have in-depth knowledge of the issues that these 
articles may lead too. We would love you to put your content on the 
wiki, and not link to it from the wiki.  This was it can be reviewed in 
the standard way all Apache (HTTPd specifically) documentation is, via 
your peers.  The meritocracy system that the ASF work within is there so 
that established comitters can do just that, commit good quality work to 
the official docs for the project.
>> Added to this is his refusal to accept correction, so that 
>> when his articles are modified to reflect best practice and 
>> reality, he gets offended and changes it back.
> Say whatever you want, I'm not going to argue when the evidence is online
> for everyone to examine.  Go look at the wiki at my posting history, you
> will see how unfairly I have been treated. 
>> Behind the scenes there are angry and insulting email 
>> messages being exchanged, which I'm occasionally copied on, 
>> in which he defends his articles as being the best things 
>> ever written, and accusing us of singling him out for abuse. 
>> It's all very juvenile and time consuming.
> I believe I've written 3 people a total of 5 emails in the past 4 months.  I
> saved everything so I don't have to argue or use sweeping generalizations,
> facts speak for themselves.   I just don't understand all the unfriendliness
> and pettiness from 2 individuals since day 1 (look at my wiki history).  In
> fact, one of the people actually went to my blog and left this kindhearted
> public comment.  "This is the most idiotic ‘tip’ I’ve ever read on the web
> since 1990....  I am curious as to how you manage to generate technological
> content, you must be copying and pasting from different sources." Pleasant
> no?
I know I have asked you to join us in #apache, on more than one occasion 
so that we can initiate an open and frank discussion about the materials 
in question here.  These seems to have fallen on deaf ears, and as a 
result this is where we have ended up.  If we can discuss this openly I 
can't help but feel you might see what we have been trying to tell you, 
as a result you may find out why we feel so strongly about some of your 

> I feel like just because I posted some radical, new, and alternative ideas
> and solutions that might not have been discussed elsewhere before, people
> get a little competitive and want me to fall in line or something.  I can
> already here the response: "your stuff wasn't new or radical, it didn't
> solve anything, it was wrong, poorly written, and definately misleading."
> Why not respond like you are supposed to and actually SHOW me what is wrong,
> misleading, or poorly written?  Isn't that what the wiki is for?  How can we
> improve content when it just gets deleted right away?  I don't have time to
> try to make a couple people like me.. thats silly, I go to the wiki to
> contribute, share ideas, and learn about my favorite software.
It's not the fact your material is radical, if that were the only 
deciding factor Apache HTTPd would not be where it is today, you only 
have to look at the extensive list of modules to see the evidence of 
this.  It has progressed as people have found new and better ways to use 
their Apache server.
> I am only interested in being able to help and contribute to the wiki
> without immediately being deleted, reverted, and publically dissed both
> personally and academically.  I understand how it could have gotten to this
> point, drama is always exciting, but the past is the past and I am just
> wanting to contribute.  I've been trying for several months now, with month
> long breaks in-between, but I feel like if the people with grudges can't let
> it go, then I will never be able to contribute.  Isn't there a policy or a
> guideline or someone with rank that can point the way to put this behind us?
If you are willing to post your material on the wiki, under the Apache 
license, and not use links back to your site then I am sure your 
material will receive peer review, with a lot of positive, and 
constructive feedback.  If you then want to update your site as a 
consequence of that, then so be it, that is your choice.

> "Teamwork makes the Dream Work"
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