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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 07:14:17 -0400
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 <CAKUrXK7+gOZh0v6acfm_g9N4xjR9PdX4R5C3ZLiGKEV3D75hiA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Dropping the E-word from mod_lua (SFW)
From: Jeff Trawick <trawick@gmail.com>
To: Apache HTTP Server Development List <dev@httpd.apache.org>
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On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Daniel Gruno <rumble@cord.dk> wrote:

> Hi dev@,
> Though this is mainly a question for docs@, I thought I'd drop this
> email into the dev@ list instead, since this is where I think
> objections, if there are any, will arise.
>
> Today, on various Internet channels, I have had to do my very best to
> defend the use of mod_lua, ranging from people asking if it's safe to
> use to people claiming that it should never be used in a production
> environment. Why? because of one word in particular: Experimental.
>
> In our documentation, we write the following:
> ----
> mod_lua is still in experimental state. Until it is declared stable,
> usage and behavior may change at any time, even between stable releases
> of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading.
> ----
>
> To a committer/programmer, this may seem totally sane, but to a user of
> httpd - and I sincerely hope that users are our aim in the documentaion
> - this wording screams "BACK OFF, this may explode at any given time!".
> As a "long time" developer and user of httpd/mod_lua for both personal
> and professional sites/manoeuvres/jobs, I find it sad that I have to
> defend a module in otherwise perfect working condition with no
> discernible faults at all, simply because of a wording that scares off
> regular users of httpd. So I'd really like to change the wording into
> something less scary, so users can both know that it's still in a
> development phase, but it won't blow up your computer or spread germs if
> you use it on a production server.
>
> I'd like to change the note to something along these lines:
> ----
> mod_lua is in a state of continuous development. Usage
> and behavior is subject to change at any time, even between stable
> releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before
> upgrading
> ----
>

That text sounds fine but I don't see that as being reassuringly
non-"Experimental" from the point of an enterprise distributor or a site
administrator.  Given that declaration, it would be naive to make your
production site dependent on a fair amount of interesting code for mod_lua
unless you think you can drop everything to tweak your scripts in order to
pick up a httpd security fix at some arbitrary future time, or you can
watch mod_lua development steadily to be prepared ahead of time.  "Status:
Experimental" is the flag we have to say "watch out for this module", which
seems appropriate still.


>
> From a programming point of view, I can understand if there are
> reservations towards this change, but I ask you to look at it from a
> user point of view, and I hope you'll welcome this proposal for change.
>
> I hope we won't have to put something as tiny as this to a vote, and if
> I do not hear any strong objections within the next 72 hours, I will
> assume lazy consensus and commit this change to the documentation.
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>


-- 
Born in Roswell... married an alien...
http://emptyhammock.com/

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Daniel Gruno <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rumble@cord.dk" target=3D"_blank">rumble@cord.dk=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi dev@,<br>
Though this is mainly a question for docs@, I thought I&#39;d drop this<br>
email into the dev@ list instead, since this is where I think<br>
objections, if there are any, will arise.<br>
<br>
Today, on various Internet channels, I have had to do my very best to<br>
defend the use of mod_lua, ranging from people asking if it&#39;s safe to<b=
r>
use to people claiming that it should never be used in a production<br>
environment. Why? because of one word in particular: Experimental.<br>
<br>
In our documentation, we write the following:<br>
----<br>
mod_lua is still in experimental state. Until it is declared stable,<br>
usage and behavior may change at any time, even between stable releases<br>
of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before upgrading.<br=
>
----<br>
<br>
To a committer/programmer, this may seem totally sane, but to a user of<br>
httpd - and I sincerely hope that users are our aim in the documentaion<br>
- this wording screams &quot;BACK OFF, this may explode at any given time!&=
quot;.<br>
As a &quot;long time&quot; developer and user of httpd/mod_lua for both per=
sonal<br>
and professional sites/manoeuvres/jobs, I find it sad that I have to<br>
defend a module in otherwise perfect working condition with no<br>
discernible faults at all, simply because of a wording that scares off<br>
regular users of httpd. So I&#39;d really like to change the wording into<b=
r>
something less scary, so users can both know that it&#39;s still in a<br>
development phase, but it won&#39;t blow up your computer or spread germs i=
f<br>
you use it on a production server.<br>
<br>
I&#39;d like to change the note to something along these lines:<br>
----<br>
mod_lua is in a state of continuous development. Usage<br>
and behavior is subject to change at any time, even between stable<br>
releases of the 2.4.x series. Be sure to check the CHANGES file before<br>
upgrading<br>
----<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That text sounds fine but I don=
9;t see that as being reassuringly non-&quot;Experimental&quot; from the po=
int of an enterprise distributor or a site administrator. =A0Given that dec=
laration, it would be naive to make your production site dependent on a fai=
r amount of interesting code for mod_lua unless you think you can drop ever=
ything to tweak your scripts in order to pick up a httpd security fix at so=
me arbitrary future time, or you can watch mod_lua development steadily to =
be prepared ahead of time. =A0&quot;Status: Experimental&quot; is the flag =
we have to say &quot;watch out for this module&quot;, which seems appropria=
te still.</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
>From a programming point of view, I can understand if there are<br>
reservations towards this change, but I ask you to look at it from a<br>
user point of view, and I hope you&#39;ll welcome this proposal for change.=
<br>
<br>
I hope we won&#39;t have to put something as tiny as this to a vote, and if=
<br>
I do not hear any strong objections within the next 72 hours, I will<br>
assume lazy consensus and commit this change to the documentation.<br>
<br>
With regards,<br>
Daniel.<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Born in Rosw=
ell... married an alien...<br><a href=3D"http://emptyhammock.com/" target=
=3D"_blank">http://emptyhammock.com/</a><br>
</div></div>

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