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From Graham Leggett <>
Subject Re: What's next for 2.2 and 2.3/trunk?
Date Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:19:51 GMT
On 04 Jun 2010, at 2:55 AM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:

>>> If there is not positive feedback from two reviewers, this code  
>>> does not
>>> belong in trunk/.  As a committer, you are *free* to create your own
>>> sandboxes in svn to demonstrate code changes, if that helps  
>>> attract the
>>> necessary review.
>> What you're describing here is review-then-commit (RTC).
> No, I wasn't.  What I was suggesting is that code that is missing  
> the 'then
> Commit' bits of RTC doesn't belong.  It is not reassuring when  
> committers
> aren't reviewing the patches offered when they are presented.   
> Committing
> them to trunk doesn't reassure me that they'll have sufficient  
> review after
> the commit, either.

I get the strong sense that you want to "patch over" problems like  
this by adding additional layers of bureaucracy, instead of fixing the  
underlying problem - a shortage of active committers.

The ASF trusts committers. Committers are trusted not only to produce  
good code, but also to look over the shoulders of other committers and  
review code. This you-watch-my-back-and-I-watch-yours constitutes a  
very strong level of redundancy in our development process - a problem  
introduced is very unlikely to remain undetected, and this is evident  
in the excellent stability of our codebase.

This however only works if the level of active committers is kept up.  
Naturally over time the level of contribution of committers will  
change as priorities change, personal interests change, etc, and this  
causes a natural erosion of the active committer level. This needs to  
be balanced with the introduction of new committers, before a new new  
committer feels their contribution is being ignored and diverts their  
energy elsewhere.

Adding the additional bureaucracy as you propose will only make the  
problem worse. Instead of it taking a long time for code contributions  
to be accepted like now, code will be actively rejected due simply to  
disinterest by a too-small group of existing committers, and not  
because of the quality of the code.

> CTR is fine for all normal fixes.

No, it has been the policy of the project for many years that CTR is  
fine on trunk for *all* contributions.

We have historically added the "if it's big, check first" proviso as a  
sanity check to make sure nobody goes off on a big tangent, but lately  
this has turned into just "check first", and "check first" means  

>  RTC is always preferred for major code
> refactorings.  But the reviews need to happen, and this particular  
> code has
> been available for discussion at dev@ for months, with very little  
> comment
> between very few committers, which isn't a healthy sign.

I 100% agree it is not a healthy sign, but we disagree on the the  
sign. I see it as a sign we must step up and propose some new  
committers, I don't see it as a sign of a lack of code quality.


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