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From "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>
Subject Re: 2.2.7
Date Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:48:13 GMT
Roy really said everything necessary, I hesitated to even respond to you.
But I'll offer this so that my frustration is perfectly clear and we (you
and I, and for other devs in relation to other service providers as well)
can coexist peacefully.

Steffen wrote:
>> Tom's done a great job of clarifying this to users downloading the
>> package, but I'm afraid your messages aren't so on-target.
> 
> We are a team in this matter.
> We adjusting who is posting what,  and instruct each other.
> 
> So all on-target. Planned communication.

Then you missed the point entirely.  You spammed to users@ and dev@ with;

> To inform you.
> >
> > We at http://www.apachelounge.com  made a binary available which works
> > with mod-perl and mod-perl etc.

That's it.  No clarification, nothing w.r.t. the fact that this was no
longer Apache 2.2.6 but a hybrid with some fixes that both improve and
regress the server.  It will be good for some, bad for others and they
don't know what they are getting from your spam.

I offered;

> > I'd personally encourage anyone who didn't need piped logs to hold
> > back at 2.2.4 till there's a 2.2.7 ready to fly.

Tom replied;

> Definitely!  While this set of patches works, and therefore may yield
> some clues about the mod_perl problem - it remains unexplained *why*
> it works, so it cannot be considered trustworthy IMHO.

There you have it.  Tom's statement is clear; this is not more or less
good than Apache httpd server 2.2.6, it's simply different, with pros
and cons and we weren't sure why.  There are certain users who can most
definitely benefit from using this binary, and put up with any downside.
But he makes that clear to users, you have not.  This does not look like
coordinated dialog.

You do a disservice to the windows user community moving release candidate
discussion from the forums where they belong (where the developers will
read, react to and solve the problems) off to your own little cabana, rather
than encouraging the reports to come right back here (or testers@) where
something positive can quickly happen and the issue can be documented for
future problem solvers and coders.

You do a disservice to the windows user community not calling out the
changes to your binaries, or adding the appropriate caveat emptor with
respect to your announcement.  Tom's done so, much to their benefit.
(I'm speaking to your dev/users post, not to the text on your site).

And finally, dev@ threads which are a /developer/ community effort are
hijaaked to my personal inbox with statements such as "I won't discuss
code patches on a public list, here's the fix" (paraphrasing).  This is
not helpful, in fact it's orthogonal to the Apache way of doing things.

Those threads must be public, my mistakes, bugs, unintended consequences
must be public, the solutions should be developed in public where modperl,
fcgid, or any other module author can read them.  That's how ASF development
works.  For example, Rudgier and I fixed the same bug at the same time today
but - had one of us been off on vacation?  It would have been fixed.  With
the dev discussion off in other places, others can't jump in and just get
it solved.

So on three counts above, yes, you've raised my frustration level.  Your
several thousand downloads is tiny overall in contrast to the total number
of downloads of the windows package.  Your users are (rightfully) quite
thankful for the tips/help/service you provide.  When suggestions on your
forums pan out, and catch folks from google looking for just that answer,
they should be appreciative and you can take pride in that.  But the user
community of httpd is users@httpd.apache.org, so don't confuse your niche
with the Apache Windows user community or the Apache httpd project.

Otherwise?  I have /no/ issues with you, your team, AL or your community.
Resources like the theserverside, xenocafe, tons of script example sites and
of course ApacheLounge can be useful.  You provide a service to your users,
you let google scrape your site to bring traffic and confused users your
way, and when the information posted is correct, everyone benefits.  Roy
points out he still takes issue with your domain name but I'll let you
two work that out.

It's the basic issues above on which you've begun to alienate yourself
to the devs, repaired that frustration, and are now working to alienate
yourself once again.  Please address those specific issues, stop painting
yourself a martyr for the Windows Users cause, and be welcome at both AL
and here at Apache httpd project as a constructive participant.  And stop
with the spam already on users/dev - you don't see HP, Sun, IBM or even
my employer spaming those lists with their products, do you?

You are trying to create a community/peer resource/marketing engine etc
etc etc, and having fun helping windows users in the process.  Here at
dev@httpd we are trying to create a better server, and having fun in the
process.  As long as we don't splinter the effort of improving httpd
server or make more work for the project members, we'll all have fun
at it.  I'm not picking on you, let's solve the issues.

Bill

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