Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-httpd-dev-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 38967 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2005 20:29:05 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (209.237.227.199) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 5 Apr 2005 20:29:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 85128 invoked by uid 500); 5 Apr 2005 20:29:05 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-httpd-dev-archive@httpd.apache.org Received: (qmail 84329 invoked by uid 500); 5 Apr 2005 20:29:00 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@httpd.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dev@httpd.apache.org list-help: list-unsubscribe: List-Post: Delivered-To: mailing list dev@httpd.apache.org Received: (qmail 84316 invoked by uid 99); 5 Apr 2005 20:29:00 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=10.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE,HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_BY_IP,SPF_HELO_PASS,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: domain of danudey@gmail.com designates 64.233.170.199 as permitted sender) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (HELO rproxy.gmail.com) (64.233.170.199) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:29:00 -0700 Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c16so1889685rne for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:28:58 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ilFrGvGR2ptbKnOxTfyTM42YuZWXRGpO1FgwwTvXoxwRdp27Y1svVZyGaz/miaQBoFs1N5csvLiwm6If4OxiYc2IBXxzSxO7AlnMhggKg18JhuWiJMmi9rcgHpaN/50NMrxQqubGNgoJhHZsGZRaJ5m5Q2RZDruupvic4/YKr7I= Received: by 10.39.1.76 with SMTP id d76mr1168998rni; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.67.40 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1ed88b850504051328c2a6bbc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:28:58 -0400 From: Dan Udey Reply-To: Dan Udey To: dev@httpd.apache.org Subject: Re: simple-conf branch In-Reply-To: <4252F217.8050208@rcbowen.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_113_13163331.1112732938261" References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404130215.051861e0@pop3.rowe-clan.net> <20050404220134.GC14955@lyra.org> <20050405193527.GA17108@lyra.org> <4252F217.8050208@rcbowen.com> X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N ------=_Part_113_13163331.1112732938261 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline What makes matters worse is that the update-apache2-script that apache2=20 comes with in Debian doesn't seem to work in any situation I've tried it in= =20 (or maybe I'm just not using it right), rendering the entire configuration= =20 confusing for no substantial reason. That being said, the idea behind the Debian configuration makes things like= =20 adding vhosts easy - put them in a file, drop them into sites-enabled, and= =20 restart. Definitely easier than adding them to the httpd.conf file by hand= =20 (and then having to re-order them when you want one to be the default). One= =20 vhost (or set of relevant vhosts) per file, and you can swap in/out at will= . Personally, I'm inclined to think this would be useful to new users. It's= =20 easier for newbies to worry about one 10-line file at a time, instead of a= =20 monolithic 1000-line file (for reference, my httpd.conf from apache1 in=20 Debian is now at 1091 lines, while my apache2.conf is at 394), and for=20 sysadmins, they don't have to worry about where which directive is and=20 whether or not there's an important LoadModule or SetEnvIf somewhere betwee= n=20 two unrelated vhosts. On Apr 5, 2005 4:16 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: >=20 > Greg Stein wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 08:38:44AM -0400, Paul A. Houle wrote: > > > >>... > >> There are good operational reasons to split up configuration in > >> different files -- if the Apache install can encourage good practices, > >>based on the decade of experience we've had with it, that's a good=20 > thing. > > > > > > You have a complex series of sites and a deep understanding of > > configuration and sysadmin issues to keep it manageable. For somebody > > *new* to this, they need the utmost simplicity. Even a strong sysadmin > > needs something simple so they can figure out what they're working with > > and then blend that into their environment. > > > > If we shipped a setup similar to yours, most people would cry with > > frustration trying to figure out where to turn this or that knob. >=20 > You mean, like when new users encounter a default Debian Apache > installation? > /me hides from the Debian users. >=20 > --Rich >=20 --=20 Dan Udey ------=_Part_113_13163331.1112732938261 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline What makes matters worse is that the update-apache2-script that apache2 comes with in Debian doesn't seem to work in any situation I've tried it in (or maybe I'm just not using it right), rendering the entire configuration confusing for no substantial reason.

That being said, the idea behind the Debian configuration makes things like adding vhosts easy - put them in a file, drop them into sites-enabled, and restart. Definitely easier than adding them to the httpd.conf file by hand (and then having to re-order them when you want one to be the default). One vhost (or set of relevant vhosts) per file, and you can swap in/out at will.

Personally, I'm inclined to think this would be useful to new users. It's easier for newbies to worry about one 10-line file at a time, instead of a monolithic 1000-line file (for reference, my httpd.conf from apache1 in Debian is now at 1091 lines, while my apache2.conf is at 394), and for sysadmins, they don't have to worry about where which directive is and whether or not there's an important LoadModule or SetEnvIf somewhere between two unrelated vhosts.

On Apr 5, 2005 4:16 PM, Rich Bo= wen <rbowen@rcbowen.com>= ; wrote:
Gr= eg Stein wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 08:38:44AM -0400, Paul A. H= oule wrote:
>
>>...
>>     = ; There are good operational reasons to split up configuration in
&= gt;>      different  files -- if= the Apache install can encourage good practices,
>>based on the&n= bsp; decade of experience we've had with it,  that's a good = thing.
>
>
> You have a complex series of sites and a dee= p understanding of
> configuration and sysadmin issues to keep it man= ageable. For somebody
> *new* to this, they need the utmost simplicit= y. Even a strong sysadmin
> needs something simple so they can figure= out what they're working with
> and then blend that into their envir= onment.
>
> If we shipped a setup similar to yours, most people= would cry with
> frustration trying to figure out where to turn this= or that knob.

You mean, like when new users encounter a default Deb= ian Apache
installation?
/me hides from the Debian users.

--Ri= ch



--
Dan Udey ------=_Part_113_13163331.1112732938261--