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From Jim Jagielski <>
Subject Re: consider reopening 1.3
Date Sun, 16 Nov 2003 20:37:19 GMT
On Nov 16, 2003, at 4:12 AM, Glenn wrote:

> - lack of clear leadership and even basic direction
>   scratch-an-itch development is fine and good, but not in total chaos

Umm... this *is* the ASF. It's *developer* driven. The direction
is defined by the developers.

> - cathedral development
>   it appears that more than a few serious discussions have not happened
>   on-list and instead happen on IRC or elsewhere (board rooms?) without
>   apprising the list of what transpired.  (Or have there been 
> absolutely
>   no recent design discussions?)

I agree that in some cases, irc is "replacing" dev@, which is
Not Good. Thank God we haven't started using stupid wikis.

> - patch management
>   many patches posted to this list or the bug db languish in limbo.
>   Very little happens until a core contributor decides to take over a 
> patch
>   (more often than not it is more than simply shepherding it)
>   Little feedback; it often feels like nobody's home to answer the 
> phone...
> - insufficient (developer) documentation
>   sure, there's the source, but it takes a lot longer to wrap ones head
>   around the Apache2 paradigms than it did for Apache 1.3 BUFFs and 
> such.
>   The barrier to entry is much higher; solid design documents would be
>   infinitely helpful
> - many new contributors are frustrated and discouraged
>   see all of the above
>   The voluble Kevin Kiley said it well:
>   "Make it EASY to contribute... not a nightmare."

The above are *not* 1.3 issues, per se, but httpd ones.

> *** We need to get back many of the disenfranchised Apache 1.3 
> developers
> Killing Apache 1.3 is not a good option.  There is a strong "business"
> need in many places to stay with Apache 1.3.
> The better option is reopening the 1.3 tree.
> Release 1.4 and open a 1.5 dev tree, with the specific intent on
> having the 1.4 release eventually map _directly_ into a _seamless_
> upgrade to Apache 2.x, with very easy and clear directions for using
> a reverse proxy for those legacy 1.3 third-pary modules.)  While
> upgrading is not hard for developers, Apache is not a simple product.
> We need an even-better (tm) way to get users from There (Apache 1.3)
> to Here (Apache 2.x).  Yes, more trees are extra work, but this
> community is rapidly deteriorating without them.

As noted many times, 1.3 is actively maintained but not
actively developed. To be honest, I've not seen that
many people saying "I *really* want to add this to 1.3!".
If they had, chances are good that I'd +1 (not that what
goes into 1.3 is my decision...).

I'm curious how a 1.4 or whatever would make it "easier" for
people to make that transition. What would 1.4 have or be
for that to happen?

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