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From "Kyle Hamilton" <williamhamil...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject Re: consider reopening 1.3
Date Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:22:29 GMT
Good Point I have noticed that there is still a large number of people that
use 1.3 and are upset cause they don't like whats going on with 2. I like
you idea we need to make it easyer for people to add to apache I find it
hard to even get people to do or help with little things. We have to many
indians and no chiefs we need to elect or maybe have some senior member sort
of take charge. Linux has torvlus so who will be our hero ;-)
-Kyle Hamilton
www.kylehamilton.net *blog*
www.kylehamilton.com *site in the works*
559-593-1210
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn" <gs-apache-dev@gluelogic.com>
To: <dev@httpd.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 1:12 AM
Subject: consider reopening 1.3


> Ok, so Apache2 uptake is slower than desired for some (not all) on this
> list.  That's only logical given the success and therefore inertia to stay
> with Apache 1.3.  But there are more than a few other factors mentioned in
> recent threads that are contributing to Apache2 development stagnation.
> Ignore for a moment that vendors have only recently begun shipping Apache2
> as the default web server instead of Apache 1.3.  Stas pointed out some
> serious problems.  I reformulate them slightly differently here.
>
> - lack of clear leadership and even basic direction
>   scratch-an-itch development is fine and good, but not in total chaos
> - cathedral development
>   it appears that more than a few serious discussions have not happened
>   on-list and instead happen on IRC or elsewhere (board rooms?) without
>   apprising the list of what transpired.  (Or have there been absolutely
>   no recent design discussions?)
> - patch management
>   many patches posted to this list or the bug db languish in limbo.
>   Very little happens until a core contributor decides to take over a
patch
>   (more often than not it is more than simply shepherding it)
>   Little feedback; it often feels like nobody's home to answer the
phone...
> - insufficient (developer) documentation
>   sure, there's the source, but it takes a lot longer to wrap ones head
>   around the Apache2 paradigms than it did for Apache 1.3 BUFFs and such.
>   The barrier to entry is much higher; solid design documents would be
>   infinitely helpful
> - many new contributors are frustrated and discouraged
>   see all of the above
>   The voluble Kevin Kiley said it well:
>   "Make it EASY to contribute... not a nightmare."
> - dwindling community
>   The apache-dev list focus on 2.0 /to the detriment of 1.3/ is at odds
>   with the rest of the world that relies on the venerable Apache 1.3
> - ...
>
> Whether or not you take issue with any of the above and can provide
> (quite reasonable) defenses, I think you'll agree that the problems
> above exist to some degree or another.  My driving point is that
> action needs to be taken to keep this community fresh and vibrant.
>
> Since there is not enough time for the project leaders to address these
> issues by themselves, the obvious answer is that there needs to be more
> people involved to help shoulder these tasks.
>
> So where do we go from here?
>
> *** We need better patch management
>
> Some suggestions were made in recent threads; I won't relist them here,
> but they have my full +1 support.  I hope those at ApacheCon hash
> something great out.
>
> *** We need to get back many of the disenfranchised Apache 1.3 developers
>
> Killing Apache 1.3 is not a good option.  There is a strong "business"
> need in many places to stay with Apache 1.3.
>
> The better option is reopening the 1.3 tree.
> Release 1.4 and open a 1.5 dev tree, with the specific intent on
> having the 1.4 release eventually map _directly_ into a _seamless_
> upgrade to Apache 2.x, with very easy and clear directions for using
> a reverse proxy for those legacy 1.3 third-pary modules.)  While
> upgrading is not hard for developers, Apache is not a simple product.
> We need an even-better (tm) way to get users from There (Apache 1.3)
> to Here (Apache 2.x).  Yes, more trees are extra work, but this
> community is rapidly deteriorating without them.
>
> *** We need to get more people using Apache 2.x
>
> Apache 2.x is not going to get any better than it is now until more
> people start using it in the real world (outside the lab).  Welcoming
> back the 1.3 developers and aiding the transition is one piece.
> Making this forum more responsive (e.g. with better patch management)
> is another.  Project leadership is the biggest key.
>
> If the Apache project leaders put their heads together, give some
> direction to development and patch management, and ask for help,
> I'm sure there will be a groundswell of supporters, me among them.
>
> Cheers,
> Glenn


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