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From "Roy T. Fielding" <>
Subject see ya
Date Wed, 08 Apr 1998 02:50:36 GMT
>This sounded familiar, so I just double-checked - it was an attitude of
>yours similar to this, Roy, that apparently ticked rst off so much that
>he left the project back in October 1996.  FWIW.  Sorry, but the above has
>really triggered my bogometer after considering it overnight.

Interesting.  Do I also get credit for his PhD?

I don't think any of us know exactly why RST finally gave up on the
Apache Group (note the emphasis there -- I don't think he ever gave up on
the server itself).  I doubt that Robert himself could give you a single
answer on that one, though he is certainly far more qualified than you
to say anything about it.  If you like, I'll assume the blame for his final
departure, since it probably had more to do with our off-list discussions
(of which you are totally clueless).  OTOH, I am also primarily to blame
for him not leaving the group during the pre-1.0 days.  It is a sad thing
to be responsible for, but at least it seemed to have helped him in
finishing his Ph.D.

>I submit that if anyone else were to take such a stance as this,
>you wouldn't stand for it without substantive proof - not just
>subjective and 'because I'm an expert' statements - that IMHO
>you haven't presented.

Your submission is rejected, since I have stood for such many times.
Are you claiming that I am not an expert in the field of software
engineering?  Feel free to make that claim if you think it can be
supported (and you can come up with a better definition of "expert"
than mine).  Are you claiming that "a good reason" is now equivalent
to a substantive proof? If so, we are in a lot of trouble -- I don't
even know how to prove a software engineering principle except by
contradiction, and I don't think we have time for an empirical test.

>Let's be clear, Roy: I have enormous respect for your technical
>expertise, and value your opinion greatly.  But if this is a meritocracy,
>do you not equally value Jim's opinion and mine?  Or is it your way or
>nothing?  Guilty 'til proven innocent?  I dislike what I perceive to
>be your high-handed attitude - but admit that it might be my perception
>that's at fault.

Ken, you seem to have very selective reading abilities.  Several times
I have pointed out the procedures for resolving conflict.  I have followed
them as closely as possible, in part to ensure that when you put a +1
next to them in STATUS you were actually agreeing to abide by them.
My greatest concern has always been that the Apache Project will cease
to be a collaborative project just because one of us individuals thinks
that the project cannot continue without our own participation (and the
rest of the group are fools enough to believe it).  That is why I spent
so much time writing those guidelines.

Jim's -1 vote was on a majority decision, not a product change.  If you
want to veto something, put it in the right place in STATUS.  I removed
it because his vote was already accounted for in the individual choices.
If you guys want to veto something, then veto the first bullet where
it calls for global renaming.  Didn't I just tell you that in the
very same message?

So far, the only difference between this issue and any other is that
you and Jim disagree with the majority opinion.  Unlike most people
who just go on with their lives knowing (in their heart) that the
group has made (in their opinion) a mistake, you two seem to prefer
personal attacks on me as the instigator of the decision making process.

I am tired of being the whipping-boy just so that you can have someone
to blame for the group actually coming to a decision that you do not like.
Perhaps it was a mistake for me to insist on a decision rather than allowing
you to continue a discussion on prefixes that (at the time of my veto)
was not going anywhere, but that is the kind of mistake I tend to repeat.
Since you seem to be stuck on me as an issue, I'll remove myself from the
process.  This is my last post for a long time.  You are all about to
experience what a real Apache vacation is like, at least in regards to
my input, just as RST demonstrated his ability to go on vacation.
You can choose to recognize or ignore my outstanding veto; I won't rescind
it because it is still the right thing to do for the server code,
but I won't enforce it either.  I'll send patches to the list if I ever
get around to fixing the HTTP/1.1-rev-03 issues, but that seems unlikely
at this point (at least until summer).

I do hope that in my absence you will actually reach a decision, and
maybe even get into the habit of obtaining decisions without blaming
the process for the result.  If not, there won't be an Apache project.
There will just be a bunch of individual projects.

 ...Roy T. Fielding
    Department of Information & Computer Science    (
    University of California, Irvine, CA 92697-3425    fax:+1(714)824-1715

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