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From Oleg Kalnichevski <ol...@apache.org>
Subject Re: HttpComponents and the coming end of Jakarta
Date Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:15:00 GMT
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 4/7/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <olegk@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, 2007-04-07 at 11:31 +0200, Roland Weber wrote:
>> > Hi Oleg, all,
>> >
>> > > quite probable that Jakarta Commons will become a TLP in the very 
>> near
>> > > future
>> >
>> > How would that affect Commons HttpClient 3.x? I guess they'll
>> > leave that one in Jakarta, right?
>> >
>> > > which implies it is just a matter of time the remaining projects
>> > > of Jakarta will be forced to choose whether they want to go TLP 
>> or to
>> > > die.
>> >
>> > If we're forced out of Jakarta, how would that affect Commons 
>> HttpClient?
>> > I guess we'd leave that one in Jakarta to die, right?
>> >
>> > morbid cheers,
>> >   Roland
>> >
>>
>> Hi Roland,
>>
>> I have no idea what these guys are thinking. Anyways, I think we should
>> stick to the original plan: we support Commons HttpClient 3.x line until
>> Jakarta HttpClient (scuzme I meant to say Apache HttpClient) goes RC1,
>> then Commons HttpClient goes into dormancy.
>>
>> We should ask this question to Henri, though
>
> Sobering thread. Social engineering etc.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_%28political_science%29
> makes interesting reading, and reading that there's no way I can argue
> that this is not social engineering. Jakarta has been told for 6 years
> that it must behave as a single PMC, a piece of social engineering
> that does not scope beyond a single community. We were never a single
> community, and so we remain a broken remnant which (imo) should have
> become its own foundation (but hindsight is wonderful).
>
> I don't like such things - broken things that everyone steps around
> and ignores, or complain about in private. I currently can see two
> ways to 'fix' Jakarta. The first is to disband it, the second is to
> force it into one community (merge dev lists, clean up the PMC so it
> reflects the communities who are still left, flatten all components to
> one level).
>
> The latter is a piece of social engineering that would give anyone who
> tries to pull it off a stomach ulcer. The remaining subcommunities in
> Jakarta do not want to be merged into other communities, and thus will
> always vote for the broken system - because to the subcommunities of
> Jakarta it is not a broken system, it is how they want to be.
>
> The former is brutal and simple. Continue the migration out of
> Jakarta, which in my opinion Commons having hung around for so long
> has prevented from reaching its obvious day when the last half dozen
> active committers are having to shoulder an undesirable maintenance
> load.
>
> -- 
>
> Moving to Web Services seems odd to me, though I guess they're the
> last remaining umbrella out there (XML is at the 'there's no one left
> to turn the light out' stage) so that would be an advantage.
> Personally I don't see why not on the TLP bit. I don't see why there
> would be any social engineering needed in a Commons TLP - but I'm sure
> I'll come up with something.
>
> Why not just move Commons HttpClient into HttpComponents? And then to
> wherever? It stopped being a part of Commons when the mailing lists
> were split (again hindsight).
>
Hi Henri,

I did not mean to use the term Social engineering as *derogatory*. It is 
perfectly valid and appropriate to try to fix things, especially if they 
are perceived as seriously broken, and to try to steer the community in 
a particular direction. But as any radical reforms, they usually come at 
a cost. I understand some people think of a flatter project hierarchy as 
more efficient and better governable. The trouble with HttpClient (and 
later with HttpComponents) was about a very simple fact: it was too big 
for Commons, but not big enough to stand on its own as a top level 
Apache project. This way, being a sub-community within a large community 
with similar goals was perfectly adequate for projects like 
HttpComponents. Since this is no longer seems possible you are 
effectively asking us to choose between an electric chair and a lethal 
injection. So, to me seeking a political refuge in Web Services does 
look like a much better deal than the suggested alternatives.

I personally just want to be left alone so I could concentrate on what I 
came to ASF for: hacking code that other people find useful. 
<http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/scxml/>

Oleg

> Hen
>
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