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From: Mike Drob <mdrob@apache.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 11:03:00 -0500
Message-ID: <CAFAMeY+bA_A75fWA2tBj95qoNHR+hsYquWqCbsbZkDYLeFQn-A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Becoming a Committer
To: dev <dev@hbase.apache.org>
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archived-at: Mon, 09 Oct 2017 16:03:31 -0000

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Yep, filed https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-18974 to track
adding to the docs.

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Chia-Ping Tsai <chia7712@apache.org> wrote:

> The is a great discussion. And i love misty's list.
> Don't let this die. What about putting the summary in our docs?
>
> --
> Chia-Ping
>
> On 2017-09-30 02:34, Andrew Purtell <apurtell@apache.org> wrote:
> > This conversation is in a good place. I apologize for the tone of my
> > earlier allergic reaction but not the content. I hope that is acceptable.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Mike Drob <mdrob@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > To bounce off of what Yu Li said earlier - I see Hadoop has adopted
> very
> > > similar language to the Spark list:
> > > http://hadoop.apache.org/committer_criteria.html
> > >
> > > I especially like the examples at the bottom. They are four diverse
> paths,
> > > and there is no expectation that this is an exclusive list. If we were
> to
> > > write our own, I think it should reflect Andrew's highlighting of the
> > > non-professional contributor's path. And also important is to include
> the
> > > soft skills from Misty's list.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Stack <stack@duboce.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Good discussion. Thanks Mike for kicking it off.
> > > >
> > > > The Misty list is great.
> > > >
> > > > I find myself giving double kudos for non-code or feature contribs;
> e.g.
> > > > stuff like test-fixing, patches that fix bugs found in production or
> > > > patches from operators that ease their day-to-day burden, voting on
> > > > releases, doc., (useful, encouraging, deep, helpful) review of the
> work
> > > of
> > > > others, etc. (I'd love it if someone took ownership of our website --
> > > hint,
> > > > hint).
> > > >
> > > > Sean has a dictum, paraphrasing, "...the fastest route to
> commitership is
> > > > doing what no one else wants to do" (Did I mangle that Busbey?),
> which I
> > > > like.
> > > >
> > > > While Andrew may have misjudged Mike Drob's original intent, I
> appreciate
> > > > his rallying to the cause of the non-professional contributor and his
> > > > reaction to (mis-perceived) call for quantification (For a classic
> on the
> > > > problems that arise when hard-and-fast rules, see [2]). I'm with him
> > > > defending PMC right to give 'spirit' and 'gut' precedence over
> 'rules'
> > > > (Often, it *is* just a case of you know it when you see it). And as
> per
> > > > Andy, if perceived injustice or bias, please write here or
> private@hbase.
> > > >
> > > > Lets keep dumping on this thread. We can then summarize and make it
> easy
> > > > for prospectives to find (can also add links to stuff such as the
> recent
> > > > Wang+Leblang talk at ApacheCon [1] and Andrew's write up for how to
> be a
> > > > committer on Hadoop as background).
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > St.Ack
> > > >
> > > > 1.
> > > > https://apachecon2017.sched.com/event/9zv3/a-tale-of-two-
> > > > developers-finding-harmony-between-commercial-software-
> > > > development-and-the-apache-way-andrew-wang-alex-leblang-cloudera
> > > > 2.
> > > > https://books.google.com/books/about/Seeing_Like_a_
> > > > State.html?id=PqcPCgsr2u0C
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 4:08 PM, Zach York <
> zyork.contribution@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > bq. As a
> > > > > relatively new member in the HBase community and a non-committer,
> once
> > > > the
> > > > > new member decides that he/ she wants to become a Committer, it
> will be
> > > > > helpful to have a list of PMC members that he/ she can communicate
> with
> > > > and
> > > > > get feedback from time to time. Feedback may include potential
> > > > adjustments
> > > > > and rough idea about progress towards the goal.
> > > > >
> > > > > This sounds like a good idea! Ideally, if you interact with the
> > > community
> > > > > often enough, you should be building connections, but it nevers
> hurts
> > > to
> > > > > have someone to check how they perceive your work.
> > > > >
> > > > > bq. For others, having
> > > > > this list of volunteer mentors, will surely help.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again I agree. This part is especially important as it is hard to
> judge
> > > > > your progress if you don't have someone at the same company to
> converse
> > > > > with.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Umesh Agashe <
> uagashe@cloudera.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you all for a good discussion here. Issues with both
> having and
> > > > NOT
> > > > > > having documented specific criteria are well articulated here.
> As a
> > > > > > relatively new member in the HBase community and a non-committer,
> > > once
> > > > > the
> > > > > > new member decides that he/ she wants to become a Committer, it
> will
> > > be
> > > > > > helpful to have a list of PMC members that he/ she can
> communicate
> > > with
> > > > > and
> > > > > > get feedback from time to time. Feedback may include potential
> > > > > adjustments
> > > > > > and rough idea about progress towards the goal. Paid
> professionals
> > > who
> > > > > are
> > > > > > working with PMC members, can talk to their colleagues. For
> others,
> > > > > having
> > > > > > this list of volunteer mentors, will surely help. IMHO, this will
> > > make
> > > > > > process a bit more transparent. I would like to know your
> thoughts on
> > > > > this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Umesh
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Misty Stanley-Jones <
> > > misty@apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I feel like I inject this note into all discussions like this,
> but
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > > going to do it again. "Act like a committer" does not ONLY
> mean to
> > > > > > produce
> > > > > > > code for HBase. It means to support the project. This may mean
> any
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > following, plus a long list of other things I'm sure I'm not
> > > thinking
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > right now:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Contribute to the docs (yay!)
> > > > > > > - Help fix and improve testing
> > > > > > > - Participate in release candidate votes, even if non-binding
> > > > > > > - Review other people's work
> > > > > > > - Help newbies
> > > > > > > - Answer questions
> > > > > > > - Update the website
> > > > > > > - File issues
> > > > > > > - Mentor new contributors of all sorts
> > > > > > > - Give talks about HBase
> > > > > > > - Write blogs about HBase
> > > > > > > - Participate in design discussions
> > > > > > > - Provide UX feedback
> > > > > > > - Write demo applications
> > > > > > > - Help us attract and retain a diverse community
> > > > > > > - Interact with other projects in ways that benefit HBase and
> those
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > projects
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would personally consider all of these bullet points to be
> super
> > > > > > > significant in "act like a committer" type discussions. I think
> > > that
> > > > > > > contributing code is only one aspect. For some reason it seems
> to
> > > be
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > most appealing aspect to lots of people, but IMHO that makes
> for a
> > > > poor
> > > > > > > community experience.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Mike Drob <mdrob@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >  Hi folks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've been chatting with folks off and on about this for a
> while,
> > > > and
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > told that this made sense as a discussion on the dev@ list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How does the PMC select folks for committership? The most
> common
> > > > > answer
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > that folks should 'act like a committer' but that's painfully
> > > > > nebulous
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > easy to get sidetracked onto other topics. The problem is
> > > > compounded
> > > > > > > > because what may be great on one project is inconsistently
> > > applied
> > > > on
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > projects in the ASF, and yet we are all very tightly coupled
> as
> > > > > > > communities
> > > > > > > > and as project dependencies.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ideally, this is something that we can document in the book.
> > > Misty
> > > > > > gently
> > > > > > > > pointed out http://hbase.apache.org/book.
> html#_guide_for_hbase_
> > > > > > > committers
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > also noted that it's for what happens after somebody becomes
> a
> > > > > > committer.
> > > > > > > > Still, if the standard is "act like one until you become one"
> > > then
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > useful reading for people. Also, there doesn't seem to be any
> > > > > > guidelines
> > > > > > > > like this for PMC.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is the list of prerequisites possible to articulate, or will
> it
> > > > > always
> > > > > > > boil
> > > > > > > > down to "intangibles?" Is there a concern that providing a
> > > > checklist
> > > > > > > > (perhaps a list of items necessary, but not sufficient) will
> lead
> > > > to
> > > > > > > folks
> > > > > > > > motivated wrongly, similar to oft maligned "resume driven
> > > > > development?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll kick off the discussion by saying that my personal
> yardstick
> > > > of
> > > > > > > "Can I
> > > > > > > > trust this person's judgement regarding code/reviews" is
> probably
> > > > too
> > > > > > > vague
> > > > > > > > to be useful, and even worse is impossible for others to
> apply.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Curiously,
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Andrew
> >
> > Words like orphans lost among the crosstalk, meaning torn from truth's
> > decrepit hands
> >    - A23, Crosstalk
> >
>

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