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From Andrew Purtell <andrew.purt...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Make AsyncFSWAL the default WAL in 2.0
Date Thu, 12 May 2016 05:28:22 GMT
All you have to do is stick around long enough. Hadoop 0.20-append v2 :-)

> On May 11, 2016, at 9:46 PM, Stack <stack@duboce.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 7:53 PM, 张铎 <palomino219@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I think at that time I will start a new project called AsyncDFSClient which
>> will implement the whole client side logic of HDFS without using reflection
>> :)
> Haven't I seen this movie before? (smile)
> St.Ack
> 
> 
> 
>> 2016-05-12 10:27 GMT+08:00 Andrew Purtell <andrew.purtell@gmail.com>:
>> 
>>> If Hadoop refuses the changes before we release, we can change the
>> default
>>> back.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 11, 2016, at 6:50 PM, Gary Helmling <ghelmling@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I was trying to avoid the below oft-repeated pattern at least for the
>>> case
>>>>> of critical developments:
>>>>> 
>>>>> + New feature arrives after much work by developer, reviewers and
>>> testers
>>>>> accompanied by fanfare (blog, talks).
>>>>> + Developers and reviewers move on after getting it committed or it
>> gets
>>>>> hacked into a deploy so it works in a frankenstein form
>>>>> + It sits in our code base across one or more releases marked as
>>> optional,
>>>>> 'experimental'
>>>>> + The 'experimental' bleamish discourages its exercise by users
>>>>> + The feature lags, rots
>>>>> + Or, the odd time, we go ahead and enable it as default in spite of
>> the
>>>>> fact it was never tried when experimental.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Distributed Log Replay sat in hbase across a few major versions. Only
>>> when
>>>>> the threat of our making an actual release with it on by default did
>> it
>>> get
>>>>> serious attention where it was found flawed and is now being actively
>>>>> purged. This was after it made it past reviews, multiple attempts at
>>>>> testing at scale, and so on; i.e. we'd done it all by the book. The
>>> time in
>>>>> an 'experimental' state added nothing.
>>>> Those are all valid concerns as well. It's certainly a pattern that
>> we've
>>>> seen repeated. That's also a broader concern I have about the farther
>> we
>>>> push out 2.0, then the less exercised master is.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't really know how best to balance this with concerns about user
>>>> stability.  Enabling by default in master would certainly be a forcing
>>>> function and would help it get more testing before release.  I hear
>> that
>>>> argument.  But I'm worried about the impact after release, where
>>> something
>>>> as simple as a bug-fix point release upgrade of Hadoop could result in
>>>> runtime breakage of an HBase install.  Will this happen in practice?  I
>>>> don't know.  It seems unlikely that the private variable names being
>> used
>>>> for example would change in a point release.  But we're violating the
>>>> abstraction that Hadoop provides us which guarantees such breakage
>> won't
>>>> occur.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes. 2.0 is a bit out there so we have some time to iron out issues
>> is
>>>>> the
>>>>> thought. Yes, it could push out delivery of 2.0.
>>>> Having this on by default in an unreleased master doesn't actually
>> worry
>>> me
>>>> that much.  It's just the question of what happens when we do release.
>>> At
>>>> that point, this discussion will be ancient history and I don't think
>>> we'll
>>>> give any renewed consideration to what the impact of this change might
>>> be.
>>>> Ideally it would be great to see this work in HDFS by that point and
>> for
>>>> that HDFS version this becomes a non-issue.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think the discussion here has been helpful. Holes have been found
>> (and
>>>>> plugged), the risk involved has gotten a good airing out here on dev,
>>> and
>>>>> in spite of the back and forth, one of our experts in good standing is
>>>>> still against it being on by default.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you are not down w/ the arguments, I'd be fine not making it the
>>>>> default.
>>>>> St.Ack
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think it's right to block this by myself, since I'm clearly in
>>> the
>>>> minority.  Since others clearly support this change, have at it.
>>>> 
>>>> But let me pose an alternate question: what if HDFS flat out refuses to
>>>> adopt this change?  What are our options then with this already
>> shipping
>>> as
>>>> a default?  Would we continue to endure breakage due to the use of HDFS
>>>> private internals?  Do we switch the default back?  Do we do something
>>> else?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for the discussion.
>> 

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