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From Michael Segel <michael_se...@hotmail.com>
Subject Re: Status of Huawei's 2' Indexing?
Date Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:22:13 GMT
You miss the point. 
Your index is going to be orthogonal to your base table. 
Again, how do you handle joins?

In terms of indexing… you have to ways of building your index. 
1) In a separate M/R job. 
2) As each row is inserted, the coprocessor inserts the data in to the secondary indexes.


More to your point… 

Yes there is a delta between when you write your row to the base table and when you write
your row to your inverted index table. 
The short answer is that time is relative and it doesn’t matter.  Again, you’re going
to have to think about that issue for a while before it sinks in. You’re not dealing with
an RTOS problem… so its not real time but subjective real time. 

In terms of writing to two tables… what do you think your relational database is doing?
;-) 

I suggest you think more about the problem and the more you think about the problem, you’ll
understand that there are tradeoffs and when you walk through the problem you’ll come to
the conclusion that you want your index table(s) to be orthogonal to the base table. 


> On Mar 16, 2015, at 12:54 PM, lars hofhansl <larsh@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Dude... Relax... Let's keep it cordial, please.
> 
> To the topic:
> Any CS 101 student can implement an eventually consistent index on top of HBase.
> The part that is always missed is: How do you keep it consistent?There you have essentially
two choices: (1) every update to an indexed table becomes a distributed transaction or (2)
you keep region server local indexes.
> There is nothing wrong with #2. It's good for not-so-selective indexes.
> There is also nothing wrong with #1. This one is good for highly selective indexes (PK,
etc)
> 
> Indexes and joins do not have to be conflated. And maybe your use case is fine with eventually
consistent indexes. In that case just write your stuff into two tables and be done with it.
> 
> -- Lars
>  
>      From: Michael Segel <michael_segel@hotmail.com>
> To: dev@hbase.apache.org 
> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 8:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Status of Huawei's 2' Indexing?
> 
> You’ll have to excuse Andy. 
> 
> He’s a bit slow.  HBASE-13044 should have been done 2 years ago. And it was trivial.
Just got done last month…. 
> 
> But I digress… The long story short… 
> 
> HBASE-9203 was brain dead from inception.  Huawei’s idea was to index on the region
which had two problems. 
> 1) Complexity in that they wanted to keep the index on the same region server
> 2) Joins become impossible.  Well, actually not impossible, but incredibly slow when
compared to the alternative. 
> 
> You really should go back to the email chain. 
> Their defense (including Salesforce who was going to push this approach) fell apart when
you asked the simple question on how do you handle joins? 
> 
> That’s their OOPS moment. Once you start to understand that, then allowing the index
to be orthogonal to the base table, things started to come together. 
> 
> In short, you have a query either against a single table, or if you’re doing a join.
 You then get the indexes and assuming that you’re only using the AND predicate, its a simple
intersection of the index result sets. (Since the result sets are ordered, its relatively
trivial to walk through and find the intersections of N Lists in a single pass.) 
> 
> 
> Now you have your result set of base table row keys and you can work with that data.
(Either returning the records to the client, or as input to a map/reduce job. 
> 
> That’s the 30K view.  There’s more to it, but once Salesforce got the basic idea,
they ran with it. It was really that simple concept that the index would be orthogonal to
the base table that got them moving in the right direction. 
> 
> 
> To Joseph’s point, indexing isn’t necessarily an RDBMS feature. However, it seems
that some of the Committers are suffering from rectal induced hypoxia. HBASE-12853 was created
not just to help solve the issue of ‘hot spotting’ but also to get the Committers to focus
on bringing the solutions that they glum on in the client, back to the server side of things.

> 
> Unfortunately the last great attempt at fixing things on the server side was the bastardization
of coprocessors which again, suffers from the lack of thought.  This isn’t to say that allowing
users to extend the server side functionality is wrong. (Because it isn’t.) But that the
implementation done in HBase is a tad lacking in thought. 
> 
> So in terms of indexing… 
> Longer term picture, there has to be some fixes on the server side of things to allow
one to associate an index (allowing for different types) to a base table, yet the implementation
of using the index would end up becoming a client.  And by client, it would be an external
query engine processor that could/should sit on the cluster. 
> 
> But hey! What do I know? 
> I gave up trying to have an intelligent/civilized conversation with Andrew because he
just couldn’t grasp the basics.  ;-) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 13, 2015, at 4:14 PM, Andrew Purtell <apurtell@apache.org> wrote:
>> 
>> When I made that remark I was thinking of a recent discussion we had at a
>> joint Phoenix and HBase developer meetup. The difference of opinion was
>> certainly civilized. (smile) I'm not aware of any specific written
>> discussion, it may or may not exist. I'm pretty sure a revival of HBASE-9203
>> would attract some controversy, but let me be clearer this time than I was
>> before that this is just my opinion, FWIW.
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Rose, Joseph <
>> Joseph.Rose@childrens.harvard.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> I saw that it was added to their project. I’m really not keen on bringing
>>> in all the RDBMS apparatus on top of hbase, so I decided to follow other
>>> avenues first (like trying to patch 0.98, for better or worse.)
>>> 
>>> That Phoenix article seems like a good breakdown of the various indexing
>>> architectures.
>>> 
>>> HBASE-9203 (the ticket that deals with 2’ indexes) is pretty civilized (as
>>> are most of them, it seems) so I didn’t know there were these differences
>>> of opinion. Did I miss the mailing list thread where the architectural
>>> differences were discussed?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -j
> 
> The opinions expressed here are mine, while they may reflect a cognitive thought, that
is purely accidental. 
> Use at your own risk. 
> Michael Segel
> michael_segel (AT) hotmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

The opinions expressed here are mine, while they may reflect a cognitive thought, that is
purely accidental. 
Use at your own risk. 
Michael Segel
michael_segel (AT) hotmail.com






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