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From Michael Segel <michael_se...@hotmail.com>
Subject Re: Design review: Secondary index support through coprocess
Date Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:34:51 GMT
You start introducing a durable queue, you will increase the complexity and potentially add
a delay which could cause some issues for a couple of low latency use cases... 

You may also want to consider if indexing is important enough to warrant a solution that is
somewhat outside of the coprocessors. 

You may want to create a separate process (not thread) that runs alongside the RS for the
node in the cluster.  It would be a common indexer and you could then define multiple types
of indexing (SOLR, LUCENE, INVERTED TABLE, Etc... whatever type you want to implement and
plug in.) 

Here you would have to have a durable queue on ingestion. Also allow for a Map/Reduce job
build/rebuild the index on the fly... 

This would solve your deadlock issues, as well as allow for a more controlled management of
your server side connections, rather than 1 connection per region now managed by coprocessors....

If you don't like this... you can run an indexer separately and allow ZK to manage and load
balance which one to use. 

Just a suggestion... 


On Jan 20, 2014, at 4:45 PM, Andrew Purtell <apurtell@apache.org> wrote:

> Or don't do blocking I/O in the context of the RPC handler thread. Queue
> the work and let the handler return.
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:54 PM, lars hofhansl <larsh@apache.org> wrote:
>> Yep. That's my concern too. Would need to configure a generous number of
>> handlers to prevent this from happening.
>> ________________________________
>> From: Vladimir Rodionov <vrodionov@carrieriq.com>
>> To: "dev@hbase.apache.org" <dev@hbase.apache.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 11:57 AM
>> Subject: RE: Design review: Secondary index support through coprocess
>>>> Yes, the coprocessors potentially cross RS boundaries.
>> The open path to the disaster. Inter region RPCs in coprocessors may
>> result in periodic cluster - wide deadlocks
>> Best regards,
>> Vladimir Rodionov
>> Principal Platform Engineer
>> Carrier IQ, www.carrieriq.com
>> e-mail: vrodionov@carrieriq.com
>> ________________________________________
>> From: James Taylor [jtaylor@salesforce.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 11:39 AM
>> To: dev@hbase.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Design review: Secondary index support through coprocess
>> Yes, the coprocessors potentially cross RS boundaries. No, the index is not
>> co-located with the main table. Take a look at the link I sent as that
>> should be able to answer a lot of questions.
>> Thanks,
>> James
>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Michael Segel
>> <michael_segel@hotmail.com>wrote:
>>> James,
>>> Ok…
>>> Its been a while since we talked about this…
>>> While the index is in a separate table, is that table being split and
>>> collocated with the main table?
>>> If you’re using the coprocessor to maintain the index, that would imply
>>> you’re crossing RS boundaries if your index is truly orthogonal.
>>> Is this what you’re doing?
>>> On Jan 20, 2014, at 11:32 AM, James Taylor <jtaylor@salesforce.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> Mike,
>>>> Yes, you're mistaken:
>>>> - secondary indexes in Phoenix are orthogonal to the base table.
>> They're
>>> in
>>>> a separate table (
>>>> http://phoenix.incubator.apache.org/secondary_indexing.html).
>>>> - Phoenix has joins. They're in our master branch with a release
>>> scheduled
>>>> for next month
>>>> - numeric strings? Not a use case for indexing numeric data? Have you
>>> ever
>>>> seen a number used as an ID?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> James
>>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Michael Segel <
>>> michael_segel@hotmail.com>wrote:
>>>>> Indexes tend to be orthogonal to the base table, not to mention if
>>> you’re
>>>>> using an inverted table for an index, your index table would be much
>>>>> thinner than your base table.
>>>>> Having said that, the solution proposed by Yu, Taylor and others only
>>>>> works if you want to use the index to help on server side filtering
>> and
>>>>> misses the boat on the larger and broader picture of improving query
>>>>> optimization and joins.
>>>>> HINT: Unless I am mistaken… until you treat the index as orthogonal
>>> the
>>>>> base table, you will always lag performance of traditional MPP DWs
>> like
>>>>> Informix XPS. (Now part of IBM’s IM pillar )
>>>>> In addition, until you fix coprocessors in general, you will have
>>>>> scalability and performance issues.
>>>>> (Note that you can write a coprocessor to create a sandbox and
>> separate
>>>>> the co-process from the RS jvm, however it would be better if it were
>>> part
>>>>> of the underlying coprocessor code. )
>>>>> The current implementation makes joins worthless.
>>>>> (Note that in prior discussions,  Phoenix doesn’t do joins…)
>>>>> Here’s why:
>>>>> In order to do a join, if you use the proposed index, you have to
>> first
>>>>> reduce each index in to a single, sort ordered set.  Then you can take
>>> the
>>>>> intersection of the index result sets.  The final set would be in sort
>>>>> order and a subset of the total rows. You can then fetch the rows and
>>> still
>>>>> do a server side filter before returning the ultimate result set.
>>>>> Its that first step of reducing each result set in to a single sort
>>>>> ordered set that takes a lot of effort.
>>>>> On a side note…. there’s been some mention of ordering floats. Again,
>>> just
>>>>> a word of caution… there isn’t a really strong use case for indexing
>>>>> numeric data types. period.  And to be very, very clear, there is a
>>>>> distinction between numeric strings and numeric data types.
>>>>> -Mike
>>>>> PS. Because of my role as a consultant, I am very, very limited in
>> what
>>> I
>>>>> can say and contribute. I don’t own my work product, my clients do.
>> Take
>>>>> what I say with a grain of salt.  I’m just a skinny little boy from
>>>>> Cleveland Ohio, come to chase your beers and drink your women… ;-)
>>>>> On Jan 9, 2014, at 10:48 AM, James Taylor <jtaylor@salesforce.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> IMHO, it would be valuable if the design considered both a global
>>>>>> indexing solution and a local indexing solution. Both are useful
>>>>>> different circumstances. The global indexing design plus the
>>>>>> application integration points could be derived from Jesse's work
>> with
>>>>>> his reference implementation in Phoenix - the global indexing code
>> has
>>>>>> no Phoenix dependencies and clearly defined integration points.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> James
>>>>>> On Jan 9, 2014, at 6:36 AM, Jesse Yates <jesse.k.yates@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes, that was a big concern I had as well.
>>>>>>> It's not clear how that will work with a large number of indexes;
>>>>> people
>>>>>>> have one index, they will want more than one. To not plan for
>>> seems
>>>>>>> like an incomplete implementation to me. In a horizontally scalable
>>>>> system
>>>>>>> like HBase, lots of buddy region isn't going to work out well..*
>> Once
>>> we
>>>>>>> have regions that cannot be collocated, the extra RPC time starts
>>> be
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> biggest factor (as the doc points out) and we are back to what
>> Phoenix
>>>>> is
>>>>>>> already doing**.
>>>>>>> But I'm probably missing something here in what makes it different?
>>>>>>> For folks that haven't been following the issue some high-level
>>> it
>>>>> all
>>>>>>> kinda works" would be helpful from the championing commiters;
>> that's a
>>>>> long
>>>>>>> doc to get through and grok :). How similar is this to the work
>>>>> currently
>>>>>>> by the existing indexing implementations (huawei, Phoenix, ngdata)?
>>> The
>>>>> doc
>>>>>>> doesn't really nail down the interactions, but instead just right
>>>>> after
>>>>>>> describing why SI should be added.
>>>>>>> Agree this would be super useful, but don't want to waste too
>>> work
>>>>>>> reinventing the wheel or doing the wrong thing. further, this
>>>>> quickly
>>>>>>> starts to lead down the query optimization path, which get HBase
>> away
>>>>> from
>>>>>>> its core "be a great byte store".
>>>>>>> Like I said, I'm all for secondary indexes in HBase and think
>> is
>>> a
>>>>>>> great push. I don't mean to rain on any parades.
>>>>>>> - jesse
>>>>>>> * but a smart way to specify region collocation? That I can get
>> behind
>>>>> as
>>>>>>> it would unify a couple different indexing impls (e.g Phoenix
>>>>>>> consider using it to help make indexing faster - RPCs do suck).
>>>>>>> ** for instance, the doc talks about how to implement indexing
>>>>>>> floats... That might be a default impl, but for use cases like
>> Phoenix
>>>>> this
>>>>>>> would break all our current encodings. We handled this is the
>> indexing
>>>>> impl
>>>>>>> by making the builder pluggable for different use cases to support
>>>>>>> different encodings. I feel like a lot of the code for this kind
>> SI
>>>>>>> impl is already in Phoenix and has been working and fast for
>>>>> months
>>>>>>> now; it's surprisingly tricky, especially with the delete cases
>>> time
>>>>>>> stamp manipulation issues.
>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 9, 2014, Sudarshan Kadambi (BLOOMBERG/ 731
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Could you explain how the 1-1 association between user and
>>> table
>>>>>>>> regions is maintained. I wasn't able to understand fully
from the
>>>>> document.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: Ted Yu <dev@hbase.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> To: dev@hbase.apache.org
>>>>>>>> At: Jan 8, 2014 3:41:40 PM
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> Secondary index support is a frequently requested feature.
>>>>>>>> Please find the updated design doc here:
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/attachment/12621909/SecondaryIndex%20Design_Updated_2.pdf
>>>>>>>> HBASE-9203 is the umbrella JIRA.
>>>>>>>> Implementation patch was attached to HBASE-10222
>>>>>>>> Thanks to Rajesh who works on this feature.
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> -------------------
>>>>>>> Jesse Yates
>>>>>>> @jesse_yates
>>>>>>> jyates.github.com
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> -- 
> Best regards,
>   - Andy
> Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
> (via Tom White)

The opinions expressed here are mine, while they may reflect a cognitive thought, that is
purely accidental. 
Use at your own risk. 
Michael Segel
michael_segel (AT) hotmail.com

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