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From Stack <st...@duboce.net>
Subject Re: [DISCUSSION] Accumulo, another BigTable clone, has shown up on Apache Incubator as a proposal
Date Sat, 03 Sep 2011 05:17:31 GMT
I'm pissed off my tax dollars were being used to duplicate the effort
we expend each day up here in hbaselandia!

Some one of us needs to bottle some of the above as a response over in

My thought is that we'd be doing all involved a service getting them
to tighten up the proposal.

I'd think the response would run something like we welcome the code
drop, that we appreciate the monumental effort it must have taken
making an NSA sponsored project open source, and that we wish them
luck getting folks to run software written by the NSA (joke!), but we
have some 'feedback' on the proposal as written, in particular around
its references to our project.

I think Gary's list citing issues/code in hbase that we are unlikely
to do would be good to include in the response and that we'd question
their claiming strong relationship with hbase when it seems the
relationship was one way only.

I think Ted's question on how NSA will do OSS going forward when its
been a problem up to this is an interesting one but I'd expect that
it'll likely be asked by those over in incubator since it so obvious.

What ye reckon?

I can up a response but maybe Gary, since I'd mostly be recasting your
first response above, you want to do it?


On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:13 PM, Andrew Purtell <apurtell@apache.org> wrote:
>> I'm simply pointing out a lack of community involvement to date.
> I would only add to this that the incubation proposal makes a controversial statement
regarding existing involvement with the HBase community. It may be technically true if a certain
company with involvement in HBase has also been interacting with "Accumulo", but is disingenuous
to claim that the "community" has been involved here.
> It looks like strictly a one way street: They have been able to observe or borrow the
fruits of our labor for years, and now at a suitable point wish to incubate at the ASF to
compete with our project for community. That is not "community involvement". That is leeching.
> Best regards,
>        - Andy
> Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein (via Tom White)
>>From: Gary Helmling <ghelmling@gmail.com>
>>To: dev@hbase.apache.org
>>Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2011 3:55 AM
>>Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Accumulo, another BigTable clone, has shown up on Apache
Incubator as a proposal
>>> I've been in touch with this team for the last 18 months or so.
>>> They're good people, smart, and have a healthy respect for HBase and
>>> our team. Though they haven't contributed code or participated on the
>>> lists, I can vouch that they do follow our development and generally
>>> do understand HBase as well as what makes their system different. In
>>> the context of the incubator proposal, they're trying to explain why
>>> their system is different than HBase, and not trying to knock our
>>> project.
>>Sure, I'm not trying to knock the people or the project.  I am trying to
>>point out what I view as some inaccuracies in the comparison vs. HBase.  But
>>I haven't seen the code, so I can only speculate.
>>There are a couple things to keep in mind about the story here:
>>> - they first evaluated HBase 3 years ago. HBase at that point was not
>>> usable for their application - I think several of us here remember the
>>> state of HBase at the time and might have made the same decision. So,
>>> they started their own project with an internal team of 5-6 people.
>>I can sympathize, but I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion of
>>whether it's a good idea to incubate this project now.
>>> - contributing to open source from within the NSA is not easy, for
>>> obvious reasons. They've jumped through many hoops to open source
>>> this, and we should be thankful for that. Now that they're out in open
>>> source land, I think we'll see them collaborating with us much more
>>> openly.
>>Again I can sympathize, and if I didn't make it clear before, I applaud the
>>efforts to open source this project!  But the question at hand is not
>>whether it's good to open source the project, but whether it's appropriate
>>for incubation at the ASF.  And honestly, I don't think where the project is
>>coming from should play into that decision.
>>I'm simply pointing out a lack of community involvement to date.  Maybe the
>>involvement is different with the other Apache projects cited, or maybe that
>>will change during incubation.  But to the extent that collaboration is
>>encouraged, I think the lack of involvement to date is relevant.

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