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From Andrew Purtell <apurt...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSSION] Accumulo, another BigTable clone, has shown up on Apache Incubator as a proposal
Date Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:31:26 GMT
Note I am talking about people who feel they have an interest in HBase development, or have
some stake, or are attempting to be a competent PMC, or similar. When confronted with an incubation
of something that seems very similar ("tomcat" versus "timdog" as has been cleverly said),
legitimate concerns are raised here that there will be a negative impact on the momentum of
the HBase project, the only question is the magnitude.

On the other hand perhaps members from the community at large will indeed shift to some involvement
with Accumulo. Who knows. The Accumulo project would benefit from that. HBase probably will
not. Do we all benefit in the end nonetheless? If there were more apparent differences it
would seem less like a zero sum game.

All of this is of course merely only one person's opinions, not the opinion of my employer,
or the HBase PMC, etc. For what it might be worth.

Best regards,

    - Andy

On Mon Sep 5th, 2011 7:10 AM PDT Andrew Purtell wrote:

>> I think it would be cool if the HBase
>> community which "is responsible for
>> the creation and maintenance of
>> software related to a distributed
>> database" (board resolution) shows its
>> openess and gets involved with the
>> project as mentors, committers, lurkers.
>How does that benefit HBase? I can see how it would benefit Accumulo. There is an argument
to be made it is not a zero sum game, but to do what you suggest will pull resources from
moving HBase forward. This seems an "opportunity" to split our precious development resources,
split community, split resources, confuse would be adopters, and slow down or stop forward
momentum. I'm not seeing support for that on this thread. Perhaps if HBase did what you suggest
it is actually contrary to the interests of the project, so would be mismanagement? I am just
thinking out loud here.
>Best regards,
>    - Andy
>On Mon Sep 5th, 2011 3:50 AM PDT Bernd Fondermann wrote:
>>On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 10:30, Steven Noels <stevenn@outerthought.org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Stack <stack@duboce.net> wrote:
>>> See here for the incubator proposal:
>>>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/AccumuloProposal
>>> I'm usually dumbfounded with the amount of secrecy that typically surrounds
>>> these incubator proposals - which is weird as the goal is ultimately to open
>>> something up. I've been around ASF long enough to
>>> realize organizations often have specific goals as to when and how drop
>>> their precious jewels into the Foundation. Oh well.
>>> I for one am more disappointed that this apparently has been an on-going
>>> work for quite some time, shrouded in secrecy, by people fully aware of the
>>> fact that an equivalent - community-driven - alternative existed - however
>>> they didn't feel obliged or inclined to go the extra mile and start
>>> communicating (or collaborating!) and they now try and look for technical
>>> reasons as to whether they really had to do their own thing. It's pretty
>>> unconvincing to open something up only once it's done and you can afford to
>>> have other cooks in the kitchen.
>>You are putting this as if there is a hidden agenda of some kind.
>>This is purely speculation. Otherwise, please come up with facts.
>>I read the proposal and surrounding discussion this way: Because of
>>legal issues this NSA-internal project was unable to contribute back
>>(whether or not that's actually true, I cannot say).
>>They were trying to open source it, to be able to interact with the
>>relevant Apache projects (I learned on this thread these are Hadoop
>>and HBase) and had to overcome the legal issues (pls. see the cited
>>LEGAL-JIRA item) which took some time. (NB: These issues are not yet
>>finally solved. The proposal asks for derivation from our standard
>>Now they are open sourcing it.
>>Isn't this what you ask for?
>>I think it would be cool if the HBase community which "is responsible
>>for the creation and maintenance of software related to a distributed
>>database" (board resolution) shows its openess and gets involved with
>>the project as mentors, committers, lurkers.
>>> But rather than shifting the burden to our side, maybe the incubator should
>>> be rather strict in verifying there *is* a viable community for an
>>> Apache-style development model at Accumulo.
>>Sure, that's the single most important goal for any podling.
>>> I've been mentoring BEA code
>>> dumps myself into Apache, and once the company focus shifted, the lack of
>>> genuine community dev adoption became rapidly apparent. Which was shortly
>>> after that project graduated, of course.
>>A project may lose community any time in or after graduation. We seen
>>projects not even making it into the Incubator after being voted in.
>>I cannot foresee the future. Can you?
>>I certainly am not in the
>>speculating-about-what-happens-after-successful-graduation business.
>>If you look at the 100-or-so projects at the ASF, there are all shades
>>of grey, from healthy to brain-dead.
>>   Bernd

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