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From Caleb Welton <cwel...@pivotal.io>
Subject Re: Staying with RTC (review-then-commit) rule
Date Wed, 30 Sep 2015 00:54:22 GMT
To a degree repeating the conversation is healthy.  Projects are different and there are trade
offs between different mechanisms.  We should read through the other projects conversations,
understand why they made the choices they did, listen to the advice of our mentors and come
to our own conclusions via discussion.

I see the benefit of the suggestion to "start with RTC and then relax" as something that deliberately
forces us as a community look at the Apache voting process, show that we understand it and
can follow it, and understand the impact.  Once that goal has been achieved then relaxing
to CTR streamlines things while still working with best practices.  Basically training wheels
as we are working through the initial growing pains of incubation. 

One additional orthogonal comment.  You mention "Any change that touches code or test, whether
reviewed or not, must have full CI  <http://204.14.53.153/overview.html>test suite pass."

Wearing my Apache hat:
If that's what Pivotal wants to do that's fine and up to them, but as an Apache project we
cannot institutionalize and require a commit process that relies on closed test frameworks
not available to the community.

Still hoping we can get more committers to weigh in...

> On Sep 29, 2015, at 10:27 PM, CHANG Lei <chang.lei.cn@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I think we are going to repeat the discussions other guys have discussed.
> 
> Personally, I think, RTC is rigid and restrictive. Different cases should
> be handled differently.
> 
> For small changes, RTC is somewhat too heavy for committers.
> 
> I think it is a good choice to let committers decide which one need review
> and which one does not.
> 
> One example is about deleting the p4 ignore file, to send an email to
> solicit review and waste several developers time do not worth it.
> 
> Like the conclusion ignite project get.
> 
>   - It is up to a committer to decide whether a change should need a
>   review or not.
>   - Any change that touches code or test, whether reviewed or not, must
>   have full CI  <http://204.14.53.153/overview.html>test suite pass.
>   - As a guideline, trivial changes, like updates to documentation or
>   tests, etc. should not need a review prior to committing, and often can be
>   made directly in the master branch.
>   - *It is strongly recommended to have non-trivial changes reviewed by at
>   least one other committer.*
> 
> 
> If we get everyone's feedback, we might get the same consensus.
> 
> Cheers
> Lei
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:48 PM, Caleb Welton <cwelton@pivotal.io> wrote:
>> 
>> Konstantin, thanks for the references, it's helpful seeing what other
>> projects have done and the discussions they have had.
>> 
>> Right now I'm inclined to follow Roman's advice of starting with RTC at
>> least until we've gotten into the swing of things Apache style.  This also
>> seems in-line with the contribution guidelines that Lei sketched out [1]
>> which seems to assume a RTC model.
>> 
>> The LazyConsensus model seems like a good addition to a pure RTC.  The
>> voting guidelines that you posted seem to indicate 3 +1's are typical.
>> From a hallway conversation with Roman it sounded like 1 or 2 are equally
>> common.
>> 
>> So... I propose:
>>  - Use RTC and revisit if we feel this is too much overhead
>>  - Start with 2 +1's defining consensus
>>  - Allow LazyConsensus
>>  - Update the contribution guidelines accordingly
>> 
>> Agree/Disagree?  Hopefully we can get some more people to weigh in.
>> 
>> Caleb
>> 
>> [1]
>> 
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HAWQ/Contributing+to+HAWQ#ContributingtoHAWQ-Codereview
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:12 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <cos@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 11:06PM, CHANG Lei wrote:
>>>> CTR (Commit then Review) or RTC (Review then commit) is a process we
>> need
>>>> to finalize soon. Actually, most of the hawq code developed before
>>> follows
>>>> CTR.
>>>> 
>>>> And I just found some other commits on the branch (that does not get 2
>>> +1s,
>>>> looks from Caleb :-)
>>>> 
>>>> So IMO, to get this finalized might be a good practice for an apache
>>> voting
>>>> process on Procedural item (
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
>>> ).
>>> 
>>> While using voting to rubber-stamp a procedural vote is a legit use of
>> the
>>> voting process, let's only use it after the consensus [1] is reached.
>>> Voting
>>> isn't a replacement nor a right mechanism to establish policies or
>>> practices
>>> within the community. A couple of good examples of gaining the consensus
>>> through the community relevant to the topic are [2] and [3]
>>> 
>>> Cos
>>> 
>>> [1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#LazyConsensus
>>> [2] http://bit.ly/1gLeArc
>>> [3]
>> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Jira-Process-tp1816p1831.html
>>> 
>>>> Most committers do not know about the process.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Lei
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Caleb Welton <cwelton@pivotal.io>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Konstantin, I don't think all the developers are aware of the
>>> differences
>>>>> between CTR and RTC.  Would you care to elaborate on the contribution
>>>>> protocols?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <cos@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am the big advocate of CTR model and has been pushing it in a
>>> number of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> projects before. However, for the very early ones like Hawq right
>>> now,
>>>>> RTC
>>>>>> might make more sense: it takes time to learn how to add new trusty
>>>>> people
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the community; also for new committers it helps to learn the code
>>> faster
>>>>> by
>>>>>> doing the mandatory reviews. But before you know it, I will be
>> doing
>>>>> rounds
>>>>>> here pushing for CTR ;)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cos
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 03:11PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> just wanted to say what I said on HAWQ-7, but
>>>>>>> since not all of us are watching that JIRA, I think
>>>>>>> it would be useful to repeat it here.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> While there's nothing wrong with lazy consensus,
>>>>>>> but initially I'd suggest staying with RTC model.
>>>>>>> Thus +1 from somebody else should be explicitly
>>>>>>> required.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't think there's any disagreement, but I just
>>>>>>> wanted to have it explicitly mentioned.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Roman.
>> 

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