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From Xiao-Feng Li <xiaofeng...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: roadmap suggestion
Date Sun, 26 Dec 2010 08:15:17 GMT
It could be that Harmony compiles JavaScript programs for server side.
Node.js is an interesting server side JS environment. I personally
like this direction and think high of its potential demands from the


On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Jimmy,Jing Lv <firepure@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>     Johann, the whole idea is great to me.
>     Technically, I believe the Java world is just working on this topic -
> moving JVM to be a common VM for all script languages, maybe for all
> languages (say, Java7 has a new Dynamic Invoke in vm),  In my point of view,
> the difficulty here is still that we need to find enough influence to the
> industry or people that they'd like to use/contribute to a Apache-licensed
> VM like Harmony, we'd better hear more voice from other Apache projects,
> other communities and developers if they do have such requirement (e.g,
> Maven etc). Changing syntaxes will be another topic as well as changing the
> standard, need more well-defined infrastructure, or we may find a hot area
> where everything is changing very fast and standards are not finalized.
>     However I believe Harmony has chance - here or there.
>     It's very kind of you, Johann, to bring us an amazing idea ( I googled
> and find your appearance on a netbeans interview of
> AlterSIG<http://netbeans.org/community/articles/interviews/johann-sorel-altersig.html>,
> that is cool ;) )
> 2010/12/19 johann Sorel <sorel.johann@inbox.com>
>> Good evening,
>> I have been reading the previous discussion on the harmony roadmap and the
>> little message on the web site motivated me to make this proposal.
>> "If you have an idea, come and join the community and talk about it."
>> So here it is, first to quickly introduce myself and what I'm working on.
>> My domain is Geographic Information Systems, developer on several java
>> projects like GeoAPI, GeotoolKit, Constellation, Puzzle-GIS ... In the last
>> several years I have always been very enthousiastic when developing and
>> worked both on my professional and personnal time for thoses projects. My
>> work implied working with ISO, OGC specifications and also JSR, even being
>> part of the elaboration of some of them at the OGC. Today my motivation is
>> nearly gone after the death of several projects I liked and mostly the
>> behavior of oracle against the community.
>> I started exploring alternatives outside the java world a few months ago
>> and found out the Parrot VM project, to resume quickly what it is, it's an
>> agnostic vm not related to any language and provide a set of tools to
>> 'parse' syntaxe and run different languages, also allowing high
>> interoperability between them. It believe it has a bright futur because
>> that's the way a VM should be.
>> Since it is now unlikely that harmony will be a 'validate' jvm, my proposal
>> is to change harmony to match a similar goal as parrot, an agnostic VM with
>> java as the reference language and start implementing other languages. Java
>> is a great syntaxe but not always appropriate for all works like small
>> parallal tasks and scientific operations / formulas. MatLab for example is
>> much more used in research areas, python also has a growing community in
>> this domain, java is just too complex and they don't want to bother with it
>> and I perfectly understand there concern. Same thing for web applications,
>> there are plenty of alternatives out there which are effective and have
>> growing community.
>> There are 3 objectives for this new 'Harmony':
>> - make a neutral VM, not a JVM.
>> - allow companies who want to move away from java to do so. this can only
>> be possible when there is a high interoperability between languages, to
>> enable us to use our old java libraries and tools (maven,ant...) with
>> different languages while library are progressivly rewritten in some other
>> language.
>> - write programs in different syntaxes when they are more appropriate.
>> Actually, alternative langages like Fantom or Scala run correctly only on a
>> JVM. This gives them very little credit as replacement for java.
>> Having a neutral, free and open source VM would benefit the community and
>> creation of alternatives.
>> As I imagine it, there would be a very slim crossplatform Harmony core
>> project providing the low level mecanism : native interfacing system,
>> exceptions, debugging/profiling, threads. And several sub projects for each
>> language.
>> You don't even have to rename the project.
>> the 'Harmony' name perfectly matches this objective. :)
>> I don't want to see harmony dye because of some legal/license problems, you
>> did a great work to make this vm, all the core for a neutral VM is done,
>> don't let it all go to waiste. If the JVM path can not continue, then so be
>> it. See further, what needs the futur of programming ?
>> Now, if the worst scenario happen and the decision to stop harmony is
>> taken, then for the sake of futur vm projects make a generous effort and
>> release a last version in public domain.
>> The apache foundation expressed it's opinion and quit the JCP. I don't
>> think it's a surprise, it's a natural decision after what happened. I am not
>> part of the apache foundation, and made only very little exchanges with it
>> on some mailing list like jackrabbit. This is actually the longest mail I
>> ever written on thoses lists, just to note that apache decision reflect not
>> only the apache foundation but also developers outside.
>> What I see around me at work and as moderator of development forums are
>> three kind of peoples :
>> - base programmers, for them what does oracle is not there concern, they
>> code, they get payed and that's all.
>> - Commercial, as long as it sells, it's fine, but if you raise a small
>> phrase like : 'hey, if we can make run our app on ZZZ vm, that's a good
>> selling argument and since we only do LGPL libraries that's one more point
>> for our tools don't you think.". they get interested, anything is good to
>> use for promotion, making the jvm look like evil is pretty easy, clients
>> get's attracted to the fact that they are not binded to some big company,
>> that's specialy true when you work with research and public instituts who
>> are surfing on the "open-source" belief.
>> - Inovating programmers, doing more then their job time, answering student
>> questions on forums, lead there own projet aside from work, thoses are the
>> real strength of open-source, their main motivation is not money but the
>> sake of the project and leaving behind them something helping the community.
>> They are concerned by what does oracle, most don't like what's going on but
>> are chained to continue because it's too much work to start again in a
>> different language, and they can't really express themselves since
>> commercial are behind them to ensure no harm is done to the company, the
>> general atmosphere is something like "damn I'm trapped" or "let's hope it
>> calms down".
>> My concerns are not for the two first categories, but the last one, if
>> there is a chance to move away without loosing the work done then they'll
>> definitly try it and the two first categories will follow. If Harmony can
>> offer this small door to exit the trap then Harmony will won. I believe
>> apache Maven is the key project, if a project can run with dependencies of
>> different languages and bytecodes, you won!
>> that was a long mail ... sorry :)
>> I hope my english wasn't too bad and that it gave ideas.
>> johann sorel
>> ____________________________________________________________
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> --
> Best Regards!
> Jimmy, Jing Lv


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