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Comments: In-reply-to Ray Chen <clraychen@gmail.com>
   message dated "Thu, 27 May 2010 17:52:46 +0800."
From: Mark Hindess <mark.hindess@googlemail.com>
To: dev@harmony.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Harmony Select Milestone One
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Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:07:17 +0100


In message <AANLkTinstzWtSOMQjj8PARb422ki2GCscYea1lHQG_Ff@mail.gmail.com>,
Ray Chen writes:
>
> Hi Jimmy,
> How about we give different snapshots for different famous application
> like HarmonySelect-Tomcat-snapshot, HarmonySelect-Hadoop-sanpshot...
> When a application is fully tested, we can make a special jre for it.
> Any comments?

This would be too hard to sustain for lots of reasons.  For instance,
at the moment we are barely getting enough PMC members voting on our
milestone releases to actually make releases.  I'd not vote +1 on a
release of apache-harmony-select-for-hadoop-... unless I'd actually
built tested and installed it with hadoop, ditto for tomcat, etc.  I
don't have time to do that - I doubt anyone has - for every application
you might want a select build for.  So I seriously doubt you'd ever
get these releases out the door at Apache.

So we make a more general apache-harmony-select-... release that tries
to be a just-big-enough-subset-to-be-useful.  My test criteria for
voting +1 will be more general to and I'd only have one release to test.

If we make apache-harmony-select attractive enough then perhaps the
Hadoop, Tomcat, etc projects would make the bundles (if they feel
that their users would appreciate it).

Regards,
 Mark.
 
> 2010/5/27 Jimmy,Jing Lv <firepure@gmail.com>:
> > Hi Alexei,
> >
> > =9A =9A That is very kind of you to remind the risk of this proposal, rea=
> lly
> > appreciate!
> > =9A =9A Yes we'd learn a lot from Alexey Petrenko's great work. Why a
> > successful combination with harmony don't catch customers' eyes? Was its
> > footprint a bit large? Or it performance cannot compete with other JREs? =
> Was
> > it too unstable to use? =9AOr just we don't continue to support? All thes=
> e
> > questions we may find solutions. For an example, we may publish a new
> > customized jre/combination in every milestone to show our continuous supp=
> ort
> > to these applications - these may take a little time to run testcases bef=
> ore
> > every release, no big effort .
> > =9A =9A Our ultimate goals is to attract customers to our Harmony project=
> , so
> > work with some real and hot applications may be a good way - to make =9Aa
> > "select" jre for different requirements. Currently, many java projects, l=
> ike
> > Hadoop etc, use Oracle/Sun's jre as the default choice ( which is stated =
> in
> > their document). Different from Alexey Petrenko's previous select, we'd
> > think about a more flexible, =9Adifferent way, even go a little far beyon=
> d
> > spec if that should meet more requirements - we are very free in this
> > harmony-select. I imagine one day, Hadoop, tomcat and other projects will
> > announce Harmony/Harmony-Select as its default JRE, which will be smaller=
> ,
> > faster and more stable for the specific program.
> >
> > =9A =9A Thank you very much Alexei, that is a warm help to me and this
> > proposal. Now can understand this is really not an easy way and may cost
> > more than I think. But I believe we'd keep going with Harmony - see how f=
> ar
> > we can explore :)
> >
> > 2010/5/26 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>
> >
> >> I saw how Jimmy's idea appeared among GSoC tasks last year.
> >> Persistence is an important component of success, and Jimmy has shown
> >> enough. Why should anyone want to stop him from trying?
> >>
> >> The whole point of public discussion is to collect different opinions
> >> and get in touch with public experience. "If I have seen a little
> >> further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." I just want
> >> Jimmy to consider Alexey Petrenko's shoulders.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 2010/5/26 Tim Ellison <t.p.ellison@gmail.com>:
> >> > On 26/May/2010 11:56, Alexei Fedotov wrote:
> >> >> I agree that Alexey Petrenko idea to bundle projects was very
> >> >> successful. IMHO, unlike ideas open source projects evolve in time,
> >> >> and those ones which are dropped and no longer maintained hardly are
> >> >> successful.
> >> >
> >> > You are right to point it out, and I'm sure you'll agree it is not a
> >> > reason to stop the next person with enthusiasm from trying :-)
> >> >
> >> >> From the bright side, one gets a unique opportunity to bring a new
> >> >> life to these projects [1], [2] and, maybe, learn few lessons.
> >> >>
> >> >> [1] http://sourceforge.net/projects/eclipse-harmony/
> >> >> [2] http://harmony.apache.org/bundles.html#Tomcat
> >> >
> >> > Yes, indeed. =9AIf Alexey is still reading the list his input would be
> >> > most welcomed.
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Tim
> >> >
> >> >> 2010/5/26 Tim Ellison <t.p.ellison@gmail.com>:
> >> >>> On 26/May/2010 09:31, Alexei Fedotov wrote:
> >> >>>> JFYI, Alexey Petrenko & company created select builds for Tomcat an=
> d
> >> >>>> Eclipse. What will make your approach more successful?
> >> >>> I happen to think that the work Alexey & company did was very useful
> >> and
> >> >>> was successful. =9AYou will recall that Eclipse were distributing an
> >> early
> >> >>> Harmony runtime milestone build bundled with Eclipse from their boot=
> h
> >> at
> >> >>> JavaOne.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Demonstrating the success of Harmony with Eclipse and Tomcat, and
> >> >>> forming parts of other projects helps promote the Harmony project as=
>  a
> >> >>> source of solid technology.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Harmony Select is a bit different since the proposal is to 'select'
> >> >>> those modules that can be combined into a viable runtime based on th=
> e
> >> >>> Harmony technology. =9AHadoop is an interesting example since there =
> are
> >> >>> likely customizations and optimizations we can perform in the runtim=
> e
> >> >>> that play to Hadoop's strengths. =9AHowever, until we get these exam=
> ples
> >> >>> working it won't be obvious which enhancements make sense.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Experimenting with a variety of runtimes derived from Harmony
> >> technology
> >> >>> is great. =9AThere is an interesting challenge in figuring out what =
> we
> >> can
> >> >>> do with this code, and how we can make it adaptable to a variety of
> >> >>> consumers, though I would be very keen to ensure all our snapshots a=
> re
> >> >>> based off a common code base so that bug fixing for one gives the
> >> >>> benefit to all of them.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Regards,
> >> >>> Tim
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> 2010/5/26 Jimmy,Jing Lv <firepure@gmail.com>:
> >> >>>>> Hi Alexei Fedotov,
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> =9A =9A =9AI don't know Alexey Petrenko's experiment, interested i=
> n that,
> >> please
> >> >>>>> tell us if you have more information.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> =9A =9A =9AI agree whole cycle of application support should be ve=
> ry great
> >> for
> >> >>>>> the applications - but it sounds like some commercial activities
> >> rather than
> >> >>>>> open source development. However for open source projects, I belie=
> ve
> >> it will
> >> >>>>> be a great if we can support some real application or even become
> >> their
> >> >>>>> default JRE, especially some hot open source Apps, as eclipse +
> >> Harmony, or
> >> >>>>> Harmony in Android/WebOS, though they use different VM and don't c=
> ome
> >> back
> >> >>>>> much any more ;) .
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> =9A =9A =9AI don't have any particular customers in mind, just thi=
> nk we'd
> >> look
> >> >>>>> for a different and flexible solution for various of applications.
> >> What do
> >> >>>>> you think?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> 2010/5/25 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Jimmy, why are you doing these select builds? Alexey Petrenko hav=
> e
> >> >>>>>> shown that even the finest bundling won't make Harmony more popul=
> ar.
> >> >>>>>> People these days want usability and the whole cycle of applicati=
> on
> >> >>>>>> support. Do you have a particular customer in mind?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> With best regards / =D3 =CE=C1=C9=CC=D5=DE=DB=C9=CD=C9 =D0=CF=D6=
> =C5=CC=C1=CE=C9=D1=CD=C9,
> >> >>>>>> Alexei Fedotov / =E1=CC=C5=CB=D3=C5=CA =E6=C5=C4=CF=D4=CF=D7,
> >> >>>>>> http://www.telecom-express.ru/
> >> >>>>>> http://harmony.apache.org/
> >> >>>>>> http://dataved.ru/ http://klsh.ru/
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> 2010/5/25 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>:
> >> >>>>>>> Hadoop is an interesting choice, because it is used for applicat=
> ion
> >> >>>>>>> hosting. Though much more common choice would be Tomcat or Jetty=
> .
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>> With best regards / =D3 =CE=C1=C9=CC=D5=DE=DB=C9=CD=C9 =D0=CF=D6=
> =C5=CC=C1=CE=C9=D1=CD=C9,
> >> >>>>>>> Alexei Fedotov / =E1=CC=C5=CB=D3=C5=CA =E6=C5=C4=CF=D4=CF=D7,
> >> >>>>>>> http://www.telecom-express.ru/
> >> >>>>>>> http://harmony.apache.org/
> >> >>>>>>> http://dataved.ru/ http://klsh.ru/
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Jimmy,Jing Lv <
> >> firepure@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> =9A =9A =9AWe are very close to publish Harmony5 M14 and Harmon=
> y6 M2,
> >> what
> >> >>>>>> great
> >> >>>>>>>> achievements since we created Harmony project!
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> =9A =9A =9ANow we may think about something different, satisfy =
> more
> >> >>>>>> requirements.
> >> >>>>>>>> Different application requirement need different JRE - it may
> >> differ
> >> >>>>>> very
> >> >>>>>>>> much in class-lib modules, providers, and VMs. =9AHarmony selec=
> t,
> >> say, a
> >> >>>>>>>> smaller, more flexible harmony runtime, may be a good candidate=
>  in
> >> such
> >> >>>>>>>> environments. We may not follow Oracle/Sun exactly in this
> >> runtime,
> >> >>>>>> allow
> >> >>>>>>>> more innovations, different modules selections, =9Aand differen=
> t
> >> >>>>>>>> functionalities to meet different requirements. We may also cal=
> l
> >> for
> >> >>>>>> more
> >> >>>>>>>> input from real Java applications, developers, especially hot
> >> >>>>>> open-source
> >> >>>>>>>> projects who are the potential customers of Harmony.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> =9A =9A =9AWe've already created an initial target in Harmony t=
> o build a
> >> >>>>>> Select
> >> >>>>>>>> binary. We remove some client-side related modules (like AWT,
> >> swing etc)
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> reduce the size while keep the main functionality for server si=
> de
> >> >>>>>>>> applications. This is a startup, very far from the finial
> >> versions.
> >> >>>>>> However
> >> >>>>>>>> I believe we can start some milestones with defined criterion l=
> ike
> >> >>>>>> standard
> >> >>>>>>>> Harmony.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> =9A =9A =9AFor the first milestone of Harmony-Select, I suggest=
>  we'd
> >> have
> >> >>>>>>>> following criterion:
> >> >>>>>>>> 1. build pass on both windows/linux platforms;
> >> >>>>>>>> 2. pass all Harmony unit testcases in the selected module on th=
> ese
> >> >>>>>>>> platforms;
> >> >>>>>>>> 3. Choose Apache Hadoop as a real Application test, pass its
> >> common test
> >> >>>>>> on
> >> >>>>>>>> these platforms for the first milestone.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> =9A =9A =9AWait for any kindly suggestions, opinions and commen=
> ts.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Best Regards!
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Jimmy, Jing Lv
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Best Regards!
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Jimmy, Jing Lv
> >> >>>>> China Software Development Lab, IBM
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Best Regards!
> >
> > Jimmy, Jing Lv
> > China Software Development Lab, IBM
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --=20
> Regards,
> 
> Ray Chen
>