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From Egor Pasko <egor.pa...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: JRE Lite
Date Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:54:36 GMT
On the 0x3FC day of Apache Harmony Johnny Kewl wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Egor Pasko" <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
> To: <dev@harmony.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:12 AM
> Subject: Re: JRE Lite
> 
> 
> > On the 0x3FC day of Apache Harmony Johnny Kewl wrote:
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Tim Ellison" <t.p.ellison@gmail.com>
> >> To: <dev@harmony.apache.org>
> >> Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 9:02 PM
> >> Subject: Re: JRE Lite
> >>
> >>
> >> > Your ideas sound quite reasonable to me.  I bet you are surprised
> >> > about how much code is run just to invoke main(String[]) in a Java
> >> > program, but I see your idea.
> >> >
> >> > If you get it working we'd be delighted to create you a branch!
> >>
> >> Heres to hoping it pans out, I do realize that this burger may be
> >> bigger than my bite ;)
> >> Expect a lot of questions in the beginning, if it starts to work as a
> >> rough prototype
> >> I'll yell.
> >> You would also have to consider carefully who sponsors the project,
> >> what lic it
> >> should have, and whether or not it should have a harmonious
> >> sounding name.
> >> As you know most OS projects are marketing statements with very little
> >> unpaid community.
> >> This one would have to be a real community driven effort, even at
> >> ownership level.... I think.
> >> ... worth thinking about I think ;)
> >> I'm going to need all the help I can get... thanks
> >
> > OK. So, the project is to make a tiny-self-downloadable-almost-java?
> >
> > So, just to make sure, the TODO is like:
> >
> > * divide JSE in small packages
> >
> > * make an easily set-up server infrastructure for package hosting and
> >  mirroring (torrent?)
> >
> > * tweak classloader to download packages if they are not available on
> >  the system
> >
> > * make things work :)
> 
> More or less yes... but I dont think it will be easy, possibly not
> even doable.
>
>
> I think size and speed tradeoffs, and the intelligence required will
> make it really
> interesting... if we get there a lot of fun.

How about a bit of somewhat easier stuff?

shell> java-intaller install --all-deps swing

(where, 'swing' is the package name)

I.e. get basic JVM, then control which packages to install by hand. No
pain. The only weird thing is that to deliver a Java app one must
provide it with list of dependencies. But this is rather common and
convenient in open source world.
 
> Java currently is a pain to deliver... can we take that away, and why
> hasnt anyone done
> that yet.... is wots on my mind.
> 
> or... you got a 50k application, but dont even bother trying to send
> it via email, or contemplate
> the user starting it froma browser.... because there is a big lump of
> concrete attached to it.
> Its like making a ferrari and towing a truck... more verbosity ;)
> 
> > Sorry for my dummy question, I am just having major difficulties
> > reading through your verbosity level ;)
> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Tim
> >> >
> >> > Johnny Kewl wrote:
> >> >> TIm... you right too much in one topic so split...
> >> >>
> >> >> You know when you discovering something, its not a science, its
> >> >> exploration, and I havent even got
> >> >> the dev env going yet so still very low on the learning
> >> >> curve... but this is what I'm thinking..
> >> >>
> >> >> The basic JRE engine must be completely plugable... dynamic loading
> >> >> as you call it.
> >> >> At a quick glance the really big components are things like the JIT
> >> >> compiler,
> >> >> The fonts, all the "base" classes and the Unicode... I think its a
> >> >> unicode module.
> >> >>
> >> >> Now here is what I'm thinking... the JRE gets stripped right down...
> >> >> So for example it looks for JIT but if it cant find it is doesnt
> >> >> crash.
> >> >>
> >> >> Then instead of making users download... there is a Harmony site
> >> >> and on this site, are all the fonts, all the classes... optional
> >> >> UTF modules etc etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> The initial download is just a bootstrap... it can either be
> >> >> downloaded or included with the software...
> >> >> If it needs a Comic font and UTF module... it fetches it, just enuf
> >> >> to get that application running.
> >> >> So if the users runs a series of small applications they all very
> >> >> quick installs, but the JRE is growing...
> >> >> So by the time the user installs a heavy application, the JRE will
> >> >> probably do it all.
> >> >>
> >> >> In this scheme there is also no concept of versioning... if a class
> >> >> is loaded that needs a new JRE lite module
> >> >> it will just happen.... the user is hassle free.
> >> >>
> >> >> So there is still a installation server somewhere.... but the user
> >> >> doesnt even have to know about it.
> >> >> That kind of dynamic loading means the JRE must fit together like a
> >> >> jigsaw puzzle..
> >> >>
> >> >> For example the first run of an application may run without JIT,
> >> >> but the JRE's background loader starts to pull
> >> >> it down... the next run will be fast....
> >> >>
> >> >> The reason I asked about the interchangability is because if one
> >> >> has a small engine that can get only what it has to... then that
> >> >> gets very interesting.
> >> >> For example, if a machine already has classpaths all over the
> >> >> place.... and a JavaLite hits the machine.... it gets only what it
> >> >> needs, ie it gets
> >> >> a few core classes, maybe a few fonts, maybe its own multimedia
> >> >> engine.... but it does not have to get anything else... it does not
> >> >> have
> >> >> to tell the users to setup xerces again... it see's wots on the
> >> >> machine already and uses it... so theres the compatability
> >> >> side... the creativity
> >> >> side is that the Java application downloaded, may also be able to
> >> >> suck down a native module, or custom class modules that do stuff
> >> >> like play
> >> >> Flash Video... now thats a JRE ;)
> >> >>
> >> >> So... when I get going I'm going to break Harmony into tini weenie
> >> >> pieces.... ha ha.
> >> >> In this model, one does not even care about classes.... its just
> >> >> that engine that must be able to discover and use whats there, or
> >> >> pull it from a installation server.
> >> >> Apps have the choice of using there own JRE Lite... or the systems
> >> >> JRE ;) but I think if that JRELite is small enuf... it will go out
> >> >> with every application.
> >> >> Installers will use that... for sure, it makes life very easy.
> >> >>
> >> >> ... so thats the idea... whether it will pan out, and the idea is
> >> >> possible, I dont know... I cant see why not....
> >> >>
> >> >> Some application will be unlucky... they internationalized the
> >> >> developer has gone mad with XML, use JPA, JMX, JWhatever... and yes
> >> >> that
> >> >> apps JRE will have to build itself up to 10 megs before it will
> >> >> run... but a game using JNI and doing its own drawing will probably
> >> >> run on a 500k JRE
> >> >>
> >> >> Developers will very quickly learn what make the JRE take a big
> >> >> hit.... I think thats a good thing, all the technology is there but
> >> >> depending on what
> >> >> system they targeting.... they will design accordingly, possibly
> >> >> using property files instead of XML parsing...
> >> >>
> >> >> So... once I get going thats my hobby for the next 4 months ;)
> >> >> If it works... you'll have to make another SVN fork;)
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> > -- 
> > Egor Pasko
> >
> >
> 
> 

-- 
Egor Pasko


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