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From "Johnny Kewl" <j...@kewlstuff.co.za>
Subject Re: JRE Lite
Date Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:43:10 GMT

---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Egor Pasko" <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
To: <dev@harmony.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: JRE Lite

> On the 0x3FC day of Apache Harmony Johnny Kewl wrote:
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tim Ellison" <t.p.ellison@gmail.com>
>> To: <dev@harmony.apache.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 9:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: JRE Lite
>> > Your ideas sound quite reasonable to me.  I bet you are surprised
>> > about how much code is run just to invoke main(String[]) in a Java
>> > program, but I see your idea.
>> >
>> > If you get it working we'd be delighted to create you a branch!
>> Heres to hoping it pans out, I do realize that this burger may be
>> bigger than my bite ;)
>> Expect a lot of questions in the beginning, if it starts to work as a
>> rough prototype
>> I'll yell.
>> You would also have to consider carefully who sponsors the project,
>> what lic it
>> should have, and whether or not it should have a harmonious sounding 
>> name.
>> As you know most OS projects are marketing statements with very little
>> unpaid community.
>> This one would have to be a real community driven effort, even at
>> ownership level.... I think.
>> ... worth thinking about I think ;)
>> I'm going to need all the help I can get... thanks
> OK. So, the project is to make a tiny-self-downloadable-almost-java?
> So, just to make sure, the TODO is like:
> * divide JSE in small packages
> * make an easily set-up server infrastructure for package hosting and
>  mirroring (torrent?)
> * tweak classloader to download packages if they are not available on
>  the system
> * make things work :)
> Sorry for my dummy question, I am just having major difficulties
> reading through your verbosity level ;)

It the "brains" of the thing that will be interesting....
Fonts are huge, so we stick them on a server...
The base classes are huge, so we stick them on a server
etc etc

Now there is just a Java Lite... and the application... they small and 
something (installer) put
them on the machine and said.... Exec(JavaLite App.Jar)

Now those "brains" kick in... the app is running and it needs a Font... the 
engine doesnt crash
it just quietly gets it.
The class running needs a List... the engine detects it and quietly gets 

Net effect (50k app + 500k engine + at runtime 300k of download).... much 
than a 25 meg package that the user would have to install.

Thats the idea... but if it turns out that (50k application + 10m engine + 
at runtime 5 meg)
its probably bust....

What will it be... how can it be engineered to be deliverable... nice 
Also much more fun that just applying someone elses rule book all the 
time.... a chance to
make a very special JRE... and if it works, that it will be... most 
A good name for it would be PANIC!  I like that... ;)

An then the final part is this... if it is lite and can deliver stuff in a 
very intelligent way... then
what about delivering stuff the Java sucks at now as well... like USB 
support would be really cool
and .... anything else the imagination allows for...

But... we want to engineer a TRICKLE.... not a TORRENT  ;)

> > Regards,
>> > Tim
>> >
>> > Johnny Kewl wrote:
>> >> TIm... you right too much in one topic so split...
>> >>
>> >> You know when you discovering something, its not a science, its
>> >> exploration, and I havent even got
>> >> the dev env going yet so still very low on the learning
>> >> curve... but this is what I'm thinking..
>> >>
>> >> The basic JRE engine must be completely plugable... dynamic loading
>> >> as you call it.
>> >> At a quick glance the really big components are things like the JIT
>> >> compiler,
>> >> The fonts, all the "base" classes and the Unicode... I think its a
>> >> unicode module.
>> >>
>> >> Now here is what I'm thinking... the JRE gets stripped right down...
>> >> So for example it looks for JIT but if it cant find it is doesnt 
>> >> crash.
>> >>
>> >> Then instead of making users download... there is a Harmony site
>> >> and on this site, are all the fonts, all the classes... optional
>> >> UTF modules etc etc.
>> >>
>> >> The initial download is just a bootstrap... it can either be
>> >> downloaded or included with the software...
>> >> If it needs a Comic font and UTF module... it fetches it, just enuf
>> >> to get that application running.
>> >> So if the users runs a series of small applications they all very
>> >> quick installs, but the JRE is growing...
>> >> So by the time the user installs a heavy application, the JRE will
>> >> probably do it all.
>> >>
>> >> In this scheme there is also no concept of versioning... if a class
>> >> is loaded that needs a new JRE lite module
>> >> it will just happen.... the user is hassle free.
>> >>
>> >> So there is still a installation server somewhere.... but the user
>> >> doesnt even have to know about it.
>> >> That kind of dynamic loading means the JRE must fit together like a
>> >> jigsaw puzzle..
>> >>
>> >> For example the first run of an application may run without JIT,
>> >> but the JRE's background loader starts to pull
>> >> it down... the next run will be fast....
>> >>
>> >> The reason I asked about the interchangability is because if one
>> >> has a small engine that can get only what it has to... then that
>> >> gets very interesting.
>> >> For example, if a machine already has classpaths all over the
>> >> place.... and a JavaLite hits the machine.... it gets only what it
>> >> needs, ie it gets
>> >> a few core classes, maybe a few fonts, maybe its own multimedia
>> >> engine.... but it does not have to get anything else... it does not
>> >> have
>> >> to tell the users to setup xerces again... it see's wots on the
>> >> machine already and uses it... so theres the compatability
>> >> side... the creativity
>> >> side is that the Java application downloaded, may also be able to
>> >> suck down a native module, or custom class modules that do stuff
>> >> like play
>> >> Flash Video... now thats a JRE ;)
>> >>
>> >> So... when I get going I'm going to break Harmony into tini weenie
>> >> pieces.... ha ha.
>> >> In this model, one does not even care about classes.... its just
>> >> that engine that must be able to discover and use whats there, or
>> >> pull it from a installation server.
>> >> Apps have the choice of using there own JRE Lite... or the systems
>> >> JRE ;) but I think if that JRELite is small enuf... it will go out
>> >> with every application.
>> >> Installers will use that... for sure, it makes life very easy.
>> >>
>> >> ... so thats the idea... whether it will pan out, and the idea is
>> >> possible, I dont know... I cant see why not....
>> >>
>> >> Some application will be unlucky... they internationalized the
>> >> developer has gone mad with XML, use JPA, JMX, JWhatever... and yes
>> >> that
>> >> apps JRE will have to build itself up to 10 megs before it will
>> >> run... but a game using JNI and doing its own drawing will probably
>> >> run on a 500k JRE
>> >>
>> >> Developers will very quickly learn what make the JRE take a big
>> >> hit.... I think thats a good thing, all the technology is there but
>> >> depending on what
>> >> system they targeting.... they will design accordingly, possibly
>> >> using property files instead of XML parsing...
>> >>
>> >> So... once I get going thats my hobby for the next 4 months ;)
>> >> If it works... you'll have to make another SVN fork;)
>> >
> -- 
> Egor Pasko

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