Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-harmony-dev-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 74136 invoked from network); 17 Oct 2007 10:09:48 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (140.211.11.2) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 17 Oct 2007 10:09:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 81935 invoked by uid 500); 17 Oct 2007 10:09:34 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-harmony-dev-archive@harmony.apache.org Received: (qmail 81902 invoked by uid 500); 17 Oct 2007 10:09:34 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@harmony.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@harmony.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@harmony.apache.org Received: (qmail 81893 invoked by uid 99); 17 Oct 2007 10:09:33 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 03:09:33 -0700 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.0 required=10.0 tests=SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (athena.apache.org: domain of t.p.ellison@gmail.com designates 209.85.128.185 as permitted sender) Received: from [209.85.128.185] (HELO fk-out-0910.google.com) (209.85.128.185) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:09:36 +0000 Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 18so1989926fks for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 03:09:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BqNW1+o7mG8OB2cear8eMyPKz2F2tYMEIj8b8CVIuZU=; b=SAjzn6ZyhJ7eXOVSlNMhapTbshn/s6kXYi4Zgr5a80NXYhWHRQKt6tNStCAG6i3jL5JTMjcWbtXdgSYHS4aJ1CucqehT2ETRB5Sxs56uf+5qdsOWlXqsAwImOM6qu+q/SdUmG11i22NDzWwHSdoqDT7VT4wmrWve85pkSaCN5C4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jZiZiFfNZNKMrNOmmx8pbCSmFFYV0v3796m5FtJBiSe9sTKWRp7upKKIGMvB8P0+giS5gVMWWWeZ8PtK+xHFoaWqtf79CudjQwez2G3NUHyhhMBwNhL75gYHM8dY2VCTulAuqv8Oroov4njmeSpch87/pLHooV3Ffc4Dazvjx88= Received: by 10.82.174.20 with SMTP id w20mr1263017bue.1192615753664; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 03:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?9.20.183.67? ( [195.212.29.92]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h6sm227037nfh.2007.10.17.03.09.11 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 17 Oct 2007 03:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4715DF3F.3030603@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:09:03 +0100 From: Tim Ellison User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dev@harmony.apache.org Subject: Re: M4? References: <51d555c70710151035y6f0884bcx5d29a3fe065a684c@mail.gmail.com> <4714CFF5.4070007@gmail.com> <906dd82e0710161920i758fdd2ax41f2f812d600ef47@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <906dd82e0710161920i758fdd2ax41f2f812d600ef47@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org Mikhail Loenko wrote: > It's interesting, but I've made for myself opposite conculsions from > the same facts :) > > Since we have a long stabilizing period it's good that we have a > longer milestone > cycle and thus we have less %% of freeze time > > As for M4, I think mid December or say, Friday Dec, 21 is OK (probably > we should try Dec 15-16 and have flexibility to extend it to Dec, 21) I suspect it is one of those topics that can be debated forever. I'll try and explain my thinking, but realize it may not end up convincing you . I'm an advocate of starting simply and getting things working, and keeping them working. I think we do a good job of jumping on build breaks here, and breaks in some frequently run test suites. So generally we don't drift too far away from some definition of 'working'. When things are working the next step (IMHO) is to release little and often. I think there are a number of advantages including limiting the risk of diverging too far from working by making a number of significant changes simultaneously; establishing the developer mindset that the code is working so it must be my recent change that needs fixing; making a milestone release business as usual, so it is not a big deal if your feature misses this train, there will be another along soon; demonstrating progress to the outside world; and so on. Clearly there is a balance to be struck between very short iterations in which there is no time to develop significant new functionality, and very long iterations where the HEAD is a free for all that needs a long time to stabilize and deliver. As a data point, Eclipse platform/JDT release milestones every six weeks. If you are going to get it wrong as you search for the optimal iteration time box, then I would suggest you want to go 'too short' rather than 'too long' since that will only serve to slow down forward progress rather than disrupt the working codebase and slow progress. Now let's not get things out of proportion. We are debating a difference of only two weeks, nobody is suggesting order of magnitude differences, so I think there is room for compromise. Regards, Tim