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From "Eugene Ostrovsky" <eugene.s.ostrov...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [vote] HARMONY-4689 - JVMTI Extension: Native Code Access Interface implementation
Date Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:17:05 GMT
+1 Accept this contribution

Thanks,
Eugene.

On 10/12/07, Pavel Afremov <pavel.n.afremov@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 to accept this contribution
>
> It could be helpful for me.
>
> BR.
> Pavel Afremov.
>
> On 10/12/07, Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Vasily,
> >
> > 1.
> > You use capitalized wordings like "Mixed Mode" debugging or
> > "Integrated Debugger was transferred to me". This sound like names of
> > internal projects you are participating. It would be great if you
> > start a new thread and disclose your activity to the community (and
> > your humble servant). Or if they are top secret projects, I have never
> > seen these references on the dev list. :-) Thank you in advance.
> >
> > 2.
> > Sorry for being unaware of projects like libthread_db.so. I've tried
> > to google it and the first search item didn't describe this project
> > well:
> > > 'Crashes in /lib/libthread_db.so.1' thread - MARC
> >
> > Could you please support your words with references to these
> > alternative projects and their licenses?
> >
> > 3.
> > In any case I believe we need to take the code now, and than compare
> > it with alternative when it is ready. Technologies quickly change and
> > replace each other, and I don't think we should reject a contribution
> > counting on its possible future obsolescence.
> >
> > Contrary, our mission is to make today's code a good base for the new
> > development. Any code will become obsolete one day. I believe
> > interfaces are the easiest thing to be replaced. Other things in this
> > implementation such as stack frame enumeration will live much longer
> > because there are not too many sane maniacs which are able to
> > understand all our calling conventions.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> > On 10/12/07, Vasily Levchenko <vasily.v.levchenko@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 10/12/07, Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Vasily,
> > > >
> > > > Now I see your attitude towards this donation. :-) When I initally
> > > > looked through interface specification, I was not very supportive and
> > > > replied with the same argument about gdb.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, gdb is not BSD-licensed or Apache compatible. So we
> > > > cannot link with it. It is important if we want to debug application
> > > > in a JVMTI-like way from the same process.
> > >
> > >
> > > It's really doesn't matter you can find the sample of GDB agents under
> > LGPL
> > > and BSD license, actually good example libthread_db.so that provide
> > access
> > > to libpthread.so internals fo GDB usually it's the same version as the
> > rest
> > > of the system libraries.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you like solutions with external debuggers, you may come up with
> > > > one as well as Salikh did two years ago, and this proved to be useful.
> > > > This just does not help in two areas I've initially outlined:
> > > > defensive programming and crash handling.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It were actually one of the lack of good crash handling that we
> > discussed
> > > when the Integrated Debugger was transfered to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > Having a level of internal
> > > > reflection from inside VM is very important to express assertions
> > > > about correct VM state for a debug build.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes, it's true but it should be done in similar way as thread_db
> > interface
> > > which could provide even core file analyzing, but with in-process
> > debugger
> > > it is impossible or very hard to implement.
> > >
> > >
> > > Finally I want to address your concern of a "pure viewing" nature of
> > > > NCAI. NCAI allows changes in runtime environment. For example, you can
> > > > change values of variables, or any memory location.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > GDB or any other out-of-process debugger provides the same functionality
> > > without any side-effects.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 10/12/07, Vasily Levchenko <vasily.v.levchenko@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On 10/12/07, Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1
> > > > > > NCAI adds very useful architectural level for VM internal
> > debugging
> > > > > > and defensive programming. The best example is a crash handler,
> > but
> > > > > > other utilities such us self-detection of deadlocks, is also
quite
> > > > > > interesting.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > NCAI could be interface to build some kind of viewer, but no real
> > > > debugger.
> > > > > 1. It couldn't be very useful  just because it's single process
> > > > debugging
> > > > > model and if you set breakpoint incorrectly you could lock whole
> > JVM.
> > > > > 2. building debugger from the very beginning you try to invent wheel
> > > > once
> > > > > again, you have to develop new mechanisms that already exists in
> > native
> > > > > debuggers.
> > > > > 3. building infrastructure for Mixed  Mode debugging using native
> > > > debugger
> > > > > could be implemented in 1-2 month and it'll be really powerful and
> > > > useful
> > > > > solution especially JNI developers.
> > > > >
> > > > > HP(gdb) and Sun (dbx) already introduced native debugger-centric
> > > > solutions
> > > > > for debugging in mixed environments. So NCAI seams to be potential
> > dead
> > > > code
> > > > > and I won't be surprised if year or two later you'll be voting for
> > > > removing
> > > > > this code.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10/12/07, Vasily Levchenko <vasily.v.levchenko@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi Mikhail,
> > > > > > > Have you got any idea how to use it? Except "Integrated
Debugger
> > for
> > > > > > > Java/JNI environment" (former MMD).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 10/12/07, Mikhail Loenko <mloenko@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We now have all requisite paperwork in place for
> > > > > > > > http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-4689,
so let's
> > vote
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > accept:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [ ] +1 Accept this contribution
> > > > > > > > [ ] -1 Reject because...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As usual, 3 days unless someone complains they need
more time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > --vvl
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > With best regards,
> > > > > > Alexei,
> > > > > > ESSD, Intel
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > --vvl
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > With best regards,
> > > > Alexei,
> > > > ESSD, Intel
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --vvl
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > With best regards,
> > Alexei,
> > ESSD, Intel
> >
>

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