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From Egor Pasko <egor.pa...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [general] jre bundle size
Date Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:07:54 GMT
On the 0x372 day of Apache Harmony Tim Ellison wrote:
> Egor Pasko wrote:
> > On the 0x372 day of Apache Harmony Spark Shen wrote:
> >> 2007/10/17, Sean Qiu <sean.xx.qiu@gmail.com>:
> >>> I suggest we maintain our classlib modules (jar) in a central repository.
> >>> So we can just get a kernel bundle, and it will download the required
> >>> jars.
> >>
> >> +1 for kernel bundle.
> >>
> >> We can add options for the default build task. Using these options to
> >> determine whether
> >> to include source code ,debug information etc.
> >>
> >> And what about  and a new build target 'build-core' for only those kernel
> >> bundles necessary
> >> to start JRE.
> > 
> > Sorry, guys:
> > -1
> > 
> > First of all, -1 to removing debug information. When you need it, it
> > is time when you really need it and you are really stuck and blaming
> > your JRE for various aspects if debug info is not there.
> > 
> > Secondly, to the kernel bundle:
> > 
> > 1. how many people want to download just 1/3 of the JRE and then keep
> >    looking of the damn slow download when running some app? This would
> >    be an unpleasant surprize because people just did not ask you to go
> >    web. Looks suspicious, slow and ugly. I do not like unpleasant
> >    surpizes.
> > 
> > 2. it is a lot of work. We will need to identify places that can be
> >    stripped, tweak classloader to download stuff instead of throwing
> >    complains. Ideally, we will need to measure user experience: how
> >    many users did not want to download more, and what we can do to
> >    increase the number of users? Seems pretty hard. So, unless
> >    somebody has a good design in their mind, I would object to this
> >    effort. And if they have, please, publish the design on wiki.
> > 
> > 3. how about permissions? anyone who runs a Java app is sometimes
> >    asked for a root password to update the JRE? not very convenient
> > 
> > 4. I believe Linux package managers would anyway stick to the full
> >    package (otherwize it turns to a nightmare of permissions, security
> >    issues and such). So, we won't get any lovers of this stuff in the
> >    Linux community, which is completely not impressing.
> > 
> > Slow, ugly, surprizing unpleasantly, vulnerable to attacks. gosh.
> > 
> > If Sun likes that, just let them have fun.
> 
> I think you are being a bit harsh Egor.  I have to admit that this is
> not where I would invest my time because I think there is plenty of
> low-hanging fruit to be picked for space savings in the current code,
> and that producing a downloadable version is not going to solve that
> problem.   However, if that is Xiao-Feng / Sean's itch then I'd let them
> go at it.
> 
> It would have to be available as an option since I also agree that there
> are many occasions when people just want the whole thing.

+1 to keep the whole thing at least as an option

Sorry for the tone.. did not want to shout so loudly, just tried to
write down all reasons and think about conscequences aloud so that if
Xiao-Feng & Sean itch, they won't get surprized :)

But, anyway, my dislike of self-downloadable stuff is still there.

On the src stuff. Yes, really, I talked on JDK. But now just curious,
don't people use JRE+Eclipse often? Is there a reason not to? (except
debug and sources) Sorry, I just have no idea about numbers.

I computed the total size of src jars in the last snapshot: 8.5M, at
and 43M is the size of the snapshot. So, we can reduce the bundle
size by 20%. Well, seems reasonable. (In case no developers use JRE)

On the debug info stuff: I think, we should keep it, agreed to
Tim. Maybe, there is a reason to have all sources separately in case a
user decided to develop, having JRE is downloaded, just not to fetch
the whole JDK.

Xiao-Feng, I like the idea of EIOffice+Harmony to have a limited
Harmony bundle, no problem. And, overall, if you like all the
complications I tried to list above, I won't shout against (given that
the full non-self-downloading bundle for JRE with debug info is there
as an option, and full non-self-downloading JDK too, of course)

-- 
Egor Pasko


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