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From: Egor Pasko <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated
Date: 13 Nov 2006 15:39:59 +0600
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On the 0x220 day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> Ok,
> I'll use http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-2150 to get an
> initial patch for the getting started document, and we can then work to
> improve it.

OK, I am "watching" it

> Let's make it a short page with links to wiki and maybe some how-tos.

To summarize:
* we agreed that there will be no eclipse screenshots (they are for
  eclipse+drlvm page)
* we agreed that there should be something like "see what kind of
  links we have"

Am I right?

> Thank you, 
> Nadya Morozova
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:10 AM
> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> outdated
> 
> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > Egor, 
> > I think we're mixing things up a bit, or at least our perceptions of
> > various docs. I'd not call what you're suggesting a tutorial - it's
> more
> > of a howto doc, right? We are lucky to have Salikh write this "How to
> > write a GC?" Doc - do you mean something similar for "DRLVM
> Command-line
> > Args Tutorial"?
> 
> on Wikipedia:
> * A _how-to_ is an informal, often short, description of how to
> accomplish
>   some specific task
> * A _tutorial_ is a document, software, or other media created for the
>   purpose of instruction for any of a wide variety of tasks
> 
> yes, I mix those terms :)
> 
> > As suggested earlier, we can store drlvm+eclipse specifics on another
> > page = see JIRA 2009. cmd options reference is on wiki, but a short
> > howto will be marvelous - illustrating usage of common options,
> solving
> > typical problems by using our vm correctly, etc. 
> > Does anybody volunteer to help?
> 
> let's collect the options first. To choose between them for the howto
>  
> > Thank you, 
> > Nadya Morozova
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:06 PM
> > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> > outdated
> > 
> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > > Alexei,
> > > Tutorials might be fine for mature projects, but I do not think ours
> > is
> > > ready for a big flow of users yet, that would require a tutorial.
> > 
> > we _are_ mature for a small tutorial :)
> > 
> > > So +1 for having a nice good  tutorial ... one day. 
> > > If there are volunteers to write the tutorial now, I'd be happy to
> > help
> > > though.
> > 
> > well, actually, I love tutorials too, especially the one for VIM :)
> > some contraversal inside me..fighting..done
> > 
> > let's then say "A Short Eclipse Tutorial with Harmony", and then
> > "DRLVM Command-line Args Tutorial". Howabout that?
> > 
> > > Thank you, 
> > > Nadya Morozova
> > >  
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Fedotov, Alexei A [mailto:alexei.a.fedotov@intel.com] 
> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:40 PM
> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
> DRL"
> > is
> > > outdated
> > > 
> > > Guys,
> > > 
> > > I like good tutorials. I learned VIM using a tutorial. I don't need
> > the
> > > VIM tutorial any longer, but at the beginning it was useful.
> > > 
> > > 	+1 for maintain Getting Started as is with minor changes
> > > 
> > > Why Eclipse was chosen for the tutorial? Our goal was to use Harmony
> > for
> > > Harmony development. I liked that idea.
> > > 
> > > With best regards,
> > > Alexei Fedotov,
> > > Intel Java & XML Engineering
> > > 
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > > >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM
> > > >To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > >Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL"
> is
> > > >outdated
> > > >
> > > >On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> > > >> Nadya,
> > > >>
> > > >> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all
> current
> > > >content
> > > >> and write something like following:
> > > >>
> > > >> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other
> Java
> > > >> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes
> > > link to
> > > >> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For
> > > >commonly
> > > >> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to
> > > >Salikh's
> > > >> page or to the document)."
> > > >>
> > > >> What do you think?
> > > >
> > > >1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :)
> > > >
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> Pavel
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > > >> > > Good day to you, Egor!
> > > >> >
> > > >> > evening, dark and snowy evening :)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > What do you say about the getting started doc?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates
> > near
> > > >> > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is
> in
> > > >> > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra
> > > >> > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page).
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1
> to
> > > Pavel
> > > >> > Ozhdikhin here.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for
> improvement
> > > from
> > > >> > him:
> > > >> > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has
> it
> > > with
> > > >> > links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get
> > to
> > > the
> > > >> > desired TLP :)
> > > >> > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be
> > > reported
> > > >> > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like
> > > >> > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the
> mailing
> > > list
> > > >:)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Thank you,
> > > >> > > Nadya Morozova
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor
> Pasko
> > > >> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM
> > > >> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > >> > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
> > DRL"
> > > is
> > > >> > > outdated
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > > >> > > > Egor,
> > > >> > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the
> > site
> > > -
> > > >> > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure
> > whether
> > > we
> > > >need
> > > >> > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I
> > > hope
> > > >the
> > > >> > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine.
> > > However,
> > > >> > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented
> > page.
> > > >There,
> > > >> > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>,
> > > <link>build</link>
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > > code. After which, they can start using it just as any
> other
> > > >> > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see
> our
> > > >> > > > <link>wiki</link> pages.
> > > >> > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following
> > > options...
> > > >> > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the
> > > >> > > > <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains an
> > > answer
> > > >-
> > > >> > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>.
> > > >> > > > .. or something like that :)
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I
> > woke
> > > up
> > > >> > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And
> > > could
> > > >> > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side
> > > collection
> > > >> > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level
> > > navigation
> > > >> > > and contains almost all links you listed here.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This was a really refreshing morning :)
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel
> > > about
> > > >the
> > > >> > > site. And will report back, if I find something.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > Thank you,
> > > >> > > > Nadya Morozova
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor
> > Pasko
> > > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
> > > >> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > >> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
> with
> > > DRL"
> > > >is
> > > >> > > > outdated
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> > > >> > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda
> > <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com>
> > > >wrote:
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > Egor,
> > > >> > > > > > +1 for
> > > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection
> of
> > > links
> > > >to
> > > >> > > > the
> > > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short
> descriptions
> > > ("Site
> > > >> > > Map"
> > > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
> > > around in
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > > web.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > We already have one page having links to the resources
> > about
> > > >DRLVM:
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
> > > >> > > > > Why do you think we need another one?
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > because it is only DRLVM.
> > > >> > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection of
> links.
> > > Short
> > > >> > > > descriptions to some basic ones.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > +1 for
> > > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM"
> > (omitting
> > > the
> > > >> > > word
> > > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > > >> > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only
> > > options?
> > > >What
> > > >> > > > about
> > > >> > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we
> > have
> > > >> > > separate
> > > >> > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > I think we can describe basic options for every component
> > > there.
> > > >> > > Only
> > > >> > > > those
> > > >> > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for
> other
> > > >options
> > > >> > > is
> > > >> > > > in
> > > >> > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can
> possibly
> > be
> > > >> > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group
> them
> > by
> > > >> > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for
> > me.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
> > > >> > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
> > > >> > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
> > > >> > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about
> > JITs
> > > >> > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate
> > problems,
> > > >which
> > > >> > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used
> by
> > > me. If
> > > >> > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly
> > and
> > > >make
> > > >> > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about
> > that?
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind
> of
> > > limit
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > > Thanks,
> > > >> > > > > Pavel
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Thank you,
> > > >> > > > > > Nadya Morozova
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > > > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
> Egor
> > > Pasko
> > > >> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM
> > > >> > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
> > > with
> > > >DRL"
> > > >> > > is
> > > >> > > > > > outdated
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova
> > wrote:
> > > >> > > > > > > All,
> > > >> > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of
> > > outdated
> > > >> > > > Getting
> > > >> > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate
> > the
> > > >page
> > > >> > > as
> > > >> > > > > > such.
> > > >> > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents, change
> > > structure,
> > > >and
> > > >> > > > update
> > > >> > > > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully before
> > > removing
> > > >the
> > > >> > > > page.
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed
> > to
> > > help
> > > >a
> > > >> > > > newbie
> > > >> > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily
> interested
> > > in
> > > >other
> > > >> > > > > > things
> > > >> > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics.
> > However,
> > > we
> > > >> > > > should
> > > >> > > > > > also
> > > >> > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is
> now
> > > the
> > > >> > > *only*
> > > >> > > > doc
> > > >> > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people
> > how
> > > to
> > > >> > > > download
> > > >> > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to run and
> > > configure
> > > >> > > (with
> > > >> > > > the
> > > >> > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT).
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you want to
> > tell
> > > >people
> > > >> > > > about
> > > >> > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store
> > this
> > > >info
> > > >> > > on
> > > >> > > > the
> > > >> > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and
> > support
> > > in
> > > >> > > this
> > > >> > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be
> > > inobjective
> > > >and
> > > >> > > > > > > emotional :)
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > Nadya,
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows
> > how
> > > to
> > > >use
> > > >> > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we
> are
> > > happy
> > > >> > > that
> > > >> > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > So, I vote for:
> > > >> > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of
> > > irritating
> > > >> > > windows
> > > >> > > > > > screenshots:)
> > > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM"
> > (omitting
> > > the
> > > >> > > word
> > > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection
> of
> > > links
> > > >to
> > > >> > > > the
> > > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short
> descriptions
> > > ("Site
> > > >> > > Map"
> > > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
> > > around in
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > > web.
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
> > > >> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM
> > > >> > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting
> started
> > > with
> > > >> > > DRL"
> > > >> > > > is
> > > >> > > > > > > outdated
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's
> hard
> > > to
> > > >> > > support
> > > >> > > > it
> > > >> > > > > > :)
> > > >> > > > > > > More problems:
> > > >> > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
> > > >> > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
> > > >> > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users
> > expect
> > > >Harmony
> > > >> > > > VM is
> > > >> > > > > > > able
> > > >> > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI..
> > > >> > > > > > > ?
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin
> <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com>
> > > >wrote:
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > > Hello all,
> > > >> > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started with
> > > >> > > > > > > > DRL<
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > >
> >
> >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
> > > .
> > > >> > > > > > > html
> > > >> > > > > > > > >"
> > > >> > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found it completely
> > > >outdated,
> > > >> > > > for
> > > >> > > > > > > example:
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > >    - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM
> > > >> > > > > > > >    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we
> > don't
> > > >need
> > > >> > > > them
> > > >> > > > > > > anymore
> > > >> > > > > > > >    to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the
> > > same
> > > >way
> > > >> > > as
> > > >> > > > with
> > > >> > > > > > > any
> > > >> > > > > > > > other
> > > >> > > > > > > >    VM.
> > > >> > > > > > > >    - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH
> > > anymore,
> > > >at
> > > >> > > > least
> > > >> > > > > > > on
> > > >> > > > > > > >    Windows/MSVC
> > > >> > > > > > > >    - ij was renamed to java
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification with other Java
> VMs
> > > and
> > > >now
> > > >> > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for
> > > >example.
> > > >> > > > After
> > > >> > > > > > > > removing
> > > >> > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would contain only
> > the
> > > >list
> > > >> > > of
> > > >> > > > > > > > command-line
> > > >> > > > > > > > options. I think we can move this list to a
> separate
> > > >document
> > > >> > > > (Wiki,
> > > >> > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting
> Started"
> > > >itself.
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > > Any opinions?
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > >> > > > > > > > Pavel
> > > >> > > > > > > > <
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > >
> >
> >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
> > > .
> > > >> > > > > > > html
> > > >> > > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > --
> > > >> > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > --
> > > >> > > > > > Egor Pasko
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > --
> > > >> > > > Egor Pasko
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > --
> > > >> > > Egor Pasko
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > --
> > > >> > Egor Pasko
> > > >> >
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-- 
Egor Pasko