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Message-ID: <c30d70960611101347o25488943o463768ecc7fb5fee@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 00:47:59 +0300
From: "Alexei Fedotov" <alexei.fedotov@gmail.com>
To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
 outdated
In-Reply-To: 
 <523F3D8D8C97554AA47E53DF1A05466A619C69@nnsmsx411.ccr.corp.intel.com>
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References: 
 <523F3D8D8C97554AA47E53DF1A05466A619C69@nnsmsx411.ccr.corp.intel.com>

Nadya,
I think fixing a tutorial is a nice task for a newbie. I have filed a
JIRA about it:
http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-2150

All,
Please check that I've correctly added your corrections to the document.

Alexei

On 11/10/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com> wrote:
> Alexei,
> Tutorials might be fine for mature projects, but I do not think ours is
> ready for a big flow of users yet, that would require a tutorial.
> So +1 for having a nice good  tutorial ... one day.
> If there are volunteers to write the tutorial now, I'd be happy to help
> though.
>
> Thank you,
> Nadya Morozova
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fedotov, Alexei A [mailto:alexei.a.fedotov@intel.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:40 PM
> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> outdated
>
> Guys,
>
> I like good tutorials. I learned VIM using a tutorial. I don't need the
> VIM tutorial any longer, but at the beginning it was useful.
>
>        +1 for maintain Getting Started as is with minor changes
>
> Why Eclipse was chosen for the tutorial? Our goal was to use Harmony for
> Harmony development. I liked that idea.
>
> With best regards,
> Alexei Fedotov,
> Intel Java & XML Engineering
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM
> >To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> >outdated
> >
> >On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> >> Nadya,
> >>
> >> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current
> >content
> >> and write something like following:
> >>
> >> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java
> >> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes
> link to
> >> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For
> >commonly
> >> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to
> >Salikh's
> >> page or to the document)."
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >
> >1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :)
> >
> >> Thanks,
> >> Pavel
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> >> > > Good day to you, Egor!
> >> >
> >> > evening, dark and snowy evening :)
> >> >
> >> > > What do you say about the getting started doc?
> >> >
> >> > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates near
> >> > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in
> >> > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra
> >> > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page).
> >> >
> >> > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to
> Pavel
> >> > Ozhdikhin here.
> >> >
> >> > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement
> from
> >> > him:
> >> > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it
> with
> >> > links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get to
> the
> >> > desired TLP :)
> >> > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be
> reported
> >> > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like
> >> > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing
> list
> >:)
> >> >
> >> > > Thank you,
> >> > > Nadya Morozova
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> >> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM
> >> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL"
> is
> >> > > outdated
> >> > >
> >> > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> >> > > > Egor,
> >> > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the site
> -
> >> > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether
> we
> >need
> >> > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I
> hope
> >the
> >> > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine.
> However,
> >> > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented page.
> >There,
> >> > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>,
> <link>build</link>
> >> > > the
> >> > > > code. After which, they can start using it just as any other
> >> > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see our
> >> > > > <link>wiki</link> pages.
> >> > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following
> options...
> >> > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the
> >> > > > <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains an
> answer
> >-
> >> > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>.
> >> > > > .. or something like that :)
> >> > >
> >> > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I woke
> up
> >> > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And
> could
> >> > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side
> collection
> >> > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level
> navigation
> >> > > and contains almost all links you listed here.
> >> > >
> >> > > This was a really refreshing morning :)
> >> > >
> >> > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel
> about
> >the
> >> > > site. And will report back, if I find something.
> >> > >
> >> > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
> >> > >
> >> > > > Thank you,
> >> > > > Nadya Morozova
> >> > > >
> >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> >> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
> >> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
> DRL"
> >is
> >> > > > outdated
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> >> > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com>
> >wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Egor,
> >> > > > > > +1 for
> >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
> links
> >to
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
> ("Site
> >> > > Map"
> >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
> around in
> >> > > the
> >> > > > web.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > We already have one page having links to the resources about
> >DRLVM:
> >> > > > >
> >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
> >> > > > > Why do you think we need another one?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > because it is only DRLVM.
> >> > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection of links.
> Short
> >> > > > descriptions to some basic ones.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > +1 for
> >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting
> the
> >> > > word
> >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> >> > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only
> options?
> >What
> >> > > > about
> >> > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we have
> >> > > separate
> >> > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I think we can describe basic options for every component
> there.
> >> > > Only
> >> > > > those
> >> > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for other
> >options
> >> > > is
> >> > > > in
> >> > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly be
> >> > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them by
> >> > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
> >> > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
> >> > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
> >> > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about JITs
> >> > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate problems,
> >which
> >> > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by
> me. If
> >> > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly and
> >make
> >> > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about that?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of
> limit
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > Pavel
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Thank you,
> >> > > > > > Nadya Morozova
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor
> Pasko
> >> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM
> >> > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
> with
> >DRL"
> >> > > is
> >> > > > > > outdated
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> >> > > > > > > All,
> >> > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of
> outdated
> >> > > > Getting
> >> > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate the
> >page
> >> > > as
> >> > > > > > such.
> >> > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents, change
> structure,
> >and
> >> > > > update
> >> > > > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully before
> removing
> >the
> >> > > > page.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed to
> help
> >a
> >> > > > newbie
> >> > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested
> in
> >other
> >> > > > > > things
> >> > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. However,
> we
> >> > > > should
> >> > > > > > also
> >> > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is now
> the
> >> > > *only*
> >> > > > doc
> >> > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people how
> to
> >> > > > download
> >> > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to run and
> configure
> >> > > (with
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT).
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you want to tell
> >people
> >> > > > about
> >> > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store this
> >info
> >> > > on
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and support
> in
> >> > > this
> >> > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be
> inobjective
> >and
> >> > > > > > > emotional :)
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Nadya,
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows how
> to
> >use
> >> > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are
> happy
> >> > > that
> >> > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > So, I vote for:
> >> > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of
> irritating
> >> > > windows
> >> > > > > > screenshots:)
> >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting
> the
> >> > > word
> >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
> links
> >to
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
> ("Site
> >> > > Map"
> >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
> around in
> >> > > the
> >> > > > web.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
> >> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM
> >> > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
> with
> >> > > DRL"
> >> > > > is
> >> > > > > > > outdated
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's hard
> to
> >> > > support
> >> > > > it
> >> > > > > > :)
> >> > > > > > > More problems:
> >> > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
> >> > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
> >> > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users expect
> >Harmony
> >> > > > VM is
> >> > > > > > > able
> >> > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI..
> >> > > > > > > ?
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Hello all,
> >> > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started with
> >> > > > > > > > DRL<
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
> .
> >> > > > > > > html
> >> > > > > > > > >"
> >> > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found it completely
> >outdated,
> >> > > > for
> >> > > > > > > example:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >    - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM
> >> > > > > > > >    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we don't
> >need
> >> > > > them
> >> > > > > > > anymore
> >> > > > > > > >    to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the
> same
> >way
> >> > > as
> >> > > > with
> >> > > > > > > any
> >> > > > > > > > other
> >> > > > > > > >    VM.
> >> > > > > > > >    - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH
> anymore,
> >at
> >> > > > least
> >> > > > > > > on
> >> > > > > > > >    Windows/MSVC
> >> > > > > > > >    - ij was renamed to java
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification with other Java VMs
> and
> >now
> >> > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for
> >example.
> >> > > > After
> >> > > > > > > > removing
> >> > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would contain only the
> >list
> >> > > of
> >> > > > > > > > command-line
> >> > > > > > > > options. I think we can move this list to a separate
> >document
> >> > > > (Wiki,
> >> > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started"
> >itself.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Any opinions?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > > > > Pavel
> >> > > > > > > > <
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
> .
> >> > > > > > > html
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > Egor Pasko
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > Egor Pasko
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Egor Pasko
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Egor Pasko
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >--
> >Egor Pasko
>


-- 
Thank you,
Alexei