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From Egor Pasko <egor.pa...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated
Date Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:09:54 GMT
On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> Egor, 
> I think we're mixing things up a bit, or at least our perceptions of
> various docs. I'd not call what you're suggesting a tutorial - it's more
> of a howto doc, right? We are lucky to have Salikh write this "How to
> write a GC?" Doc - do you mean something similar for "DRLVM Command-line
> Args Tutorial"?

on Wikipedia:
* A _how-to_ is an informal, often short, description of how to accomplish
  some specific task
* A _tutorial_ is a document, software, or other media created for the
  purpose of instruction for any of a wide variety of tasks

yes, I mix those terms :)

> As suggested earlier, we can store drlvm+eclipse specifics on another
> page = see JIRA 2009. cmd options reference is on wiki, but a short
> howto will be marvelous - illustrating usage of common options, solving
> typical problems by using our vm correctly, etc. 
> Does anybody volunteer to help?

let's collect the options first. To choose between them for the howto
 
> Thank you, 
> Nadya Morozova
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:06 PM
> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> outdated
> 
> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > Alexei,
> > Tutorials might be fine for mature projects, but I do not think ours
> is
> > ready for a big flow of users yet, that would require a tutorial.
> 
> we _are_ mature for a small tutorial :)
> 
> > So +1 for having a nice good  tutorial ... one day. 
> > If there are volunteers to write the tutorial now, I'd be happy to
> help
> > though.
> 
> well, actually, I love tutorials too, especially the one for VIM :)
> some contraversal inside me..fighting..done
> 
> let's then say "A Short Eclipse Tutorial with Harmony", and then
> "DRLVM Command-line Args Tutorial". Howabout that?
> 
> > Thank you, 
> > Nadya Morozova
> >  
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fedotov, Alexei A [mailto:alexei.a.fedotov@intel.com] 
> > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:40 PM
> > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL"
> is
> > outdated
> > 
> > Guys,
> > 
> > I like good tutorials. I learned VIM using a tutorial. I don't need
> the
> > VIM tutorial any longer, but at the beginning it was useful.
> > 
> > 	+1 for maintain Getting Started as is with minor changes
> > 
> > Why Eclipse was chosen for the tutorial? Our goal was to use Harmony
> for
> > Harmony development. I liked that idea.
> > 
> > With best regards,
> > Alexei Fedotov,
> > Intel Java & XML Engineering
> > 
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM
> > >To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > >Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> > >outdated
> > >
> > >On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> > >> Nadya,
> > >>
> > >> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current
> > >content
> > >> and write something like following:
> > >>
> > >> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java
> > >> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes
> > link to
> > >> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For
> > >commonly
> > >> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to
> > >Salikh's
> > >> page or to the document)."
> > >>
> > >> What do you think?
> > >
> > >1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :)
> > >
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Pavel
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > >> > > Good day to you, Egor!
> > >> >
> > >> > evening, dark and snowy evening :)
> > >> >
> > >> > > What do you say about the getting started doc?
> > >> >
> > >> > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates
> near
> > >> > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in
> > >> > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra
> > >> > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page).
> > >> >
> > >> > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to
> > Pavel
> > >> > Ozhdikhin here.
> > >> >
> > >> > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement
> > from
> > >> > him:
> > >> > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it
> > with
> > >> > links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get
> to
> > the
> > >> > desired TLP :)
> > >> > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be
> > reported
> > >> > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like
> > >> > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing
> > list
> > >:)
> > >> >
> > >> > > Thank you,
> > >> > > Nadya Morozova
> > >> > >
> > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > >> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM
> > >> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > >> > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
> DRL"
> > is
> > >> > > outdated
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > >> > > > Egor,
> > >> > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the
> site
> > -
> > >> > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure
> whether
> > we
> > >need
> > >> > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info.
I
> > hope
> > >the
> > >> > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine.
> > However,
> > >> > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented
> page.
> > >There,
> > >> > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>,
> > <link>build</link>
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > code. After which, they can start using it just as any other
> > >> > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions,
see our
> > >> > > > <link>wiki</link> pages.
> > >> > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following
> > options...
> > >> > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the
> > >> > > > <link>component</link> page. If no website page
contains an
> > answer
> > >-
> > >> > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>.
> > >> > > > .. or something like that :)
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I
> woke
> > up
> > >> > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And
> > could
> > >> > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side
> > collection
> > >> > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level
> > navigation
> > >> > > and contains almost all links you listed here.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > This was a really refreshing morning :)
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel
> > about
> > >the
> > >> > > site. And will report back, if I find something.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Thank you,
> > >> > > > Nadya Morozova
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor
> Pasko
> > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
> > >> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > >> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
with
> > DRL"
> > >is
> > >> > > > outdated
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> > >> > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda
> <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Egor,
> > >> > > > > > +1 for
> > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection
of
> > links
> > >to
> > >> > > > the
> > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
> > ("Site
> > >> > > Map"
> > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
> > around in
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > web.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > We already have one page having links to the resources
> about
> > >DRLVM:
> > >> > > > >
> > >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
> > >> > > > > Why do you think we need another one?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > because it is only DRLVM.
> > >> > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection of links.
> > Short
> > >> > > > descriptions to some basic ones.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > +1 for
> > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM"
> (omitting
> > the
> > >> > > word
> > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > >> > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only
> > options?
> > >What
> > >> > > > about
> > >> > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place,
but we
> have
> > >> > > separate
> > >> > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > I think we can describe basic options for every component
> > there.
> > >> > > Only
> > >> > > > those
> > >> > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for
other
> > >options
> > >> > > is
> > >> > > > in
> > >> > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly
> be
> > >> > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group
them
> by
> > >> > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for
> me.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
> > >> > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
> > >> > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
> > >> > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about
> JITs
> > >> > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate
> problems,
> > >which
> > >> > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used
by
> > me. If
> > >> > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly
> and
> > >make
> > >> > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about
> that?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind
of
> > limit
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > Thanks,
> > >> > > > > Pavel
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Thank you,
> > >> > > > > > Nadya Morozova
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > > > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf
Of Egor
> > Pasko
> > >> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM
> > >> > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting
started
> > with
> > >DRL"
> > >> > > is
> > >> > > > > > outdated
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova
> wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > All,
> > >> > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the
sight of
> > outdated
> > >> > > > Getting
> > >> > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry
to eliminate
> the
> > >page
> > >> > > as
> > >> > > > > > such.
> > >> > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents,
change
> > structure,
> > >and
> > >> > > > update
> > >> > > > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully
before
> > removing
> > >the
> > >> > > > page.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows)
is aimed
> to
> > help
> > >a
> > >> > > > newbie
> > >> > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily
interested
> > in
> > >other
> > >> > > > > > things
> > >> > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics.
> However,
> > we
> > >> > > > should
> > >> > > > > > also
> > >> > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting
started is now
> > the
> > >> > > *only*
> > >> > > > doc
> > >> > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You
tell people
> how
> > to
> > >> > > > download
> > >> > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to
run and
> > configure
> > >> > > (with
> > >> > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT).
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you
want to
> tell
> > >people
> > >> > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics.
And store
> this
> > >info
> > >> > > on
> > >> > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my
help and
> support
> > in
> > >> > > this
> > >> > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might
be
> > inobjective
> > >and
> > >> > > > > > > emotional :)
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Nadya,
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony
knows
> how
> > to
> > >use
> > >> > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility,
and we are
> > happy
> > >> > > that
> > >> > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > So, I vote for:
> > >> > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because
of
> > irritating
> > >> > > windows
> > >> > > > > > screenshots:)
> > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM"
> (omitting
> > the
> > >> > > word
> > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection
of
> > links
> > >to
> > >> > > > the
> > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
> > ("Site
> > >> > > Map"
> > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
> > around in
> > >> > > the
> > >> > > > web.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
> > >> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM
> > >> > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting
started
> > with
> > >> > > DRL"
> > >> > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > outdated
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once,
it's hard
> > to
> > >> > > support
> > >> > > > it
> > >> > > > > > :)
> > >> > > > > > > More problems:
> > >> > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
> > >> > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
> > >> > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU
users
> expect
> > >Harmony
> > >> > > > VM is
> > >> > > > > > > able
> > >> > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI..
> > >> > > > > > > ?
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Hello all,
> > >> > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started
with
> > >> > > > > > > > DRL<
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> >
> >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
> > .
> > >> > > > > > > html
> > >> > > > > > > > >"
> > >> > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found
it completely
> > >outdated,
> > >> > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > example:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >    - the term DRL is used instead of
DRLVM
> > >> > > > > > > >    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are
obsolete - we
> don't
> > >need
> > >> > > > them
> > >> > > > > > > anymore
> > >> > > > > > > >    to run Eclipse. It can be started
with DRLVM the
> > same
> > >way
> > >> > > as
> > >> > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > any
> > >> > > > > > > > other
> > >> > > > > > > >    VM.
> > >> > > > > > > >    - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH
> > anymore,
> > >at
> > >> > > > least
> > >> > > > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > >    Windows/MSVC
> > >> > > > > > > >    - ij was renamed to java
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification with
other Java VMs
> > and
> > >now
> > >> > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run
Eclipse, for
> > >example.
> > >> > > > After
> > >> > > > > > > > removing
> > >> > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would
contain only
> the
> > >list
> > >> > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > command-line
> > >> > > > > > > > options. I think we can move this list
to a separate
> > >document
> > >> > > > (Wiki,
> > >> > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting
Started"
> > >itself.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Any opinions?
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > >> > > > > > > > Pavel
> > >> > > > > > > > <
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> >
> >http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
> > .
> > >> > > > > > > html
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > --
> > >> > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > --
> > >> > > > > > Egor Pasko
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > --
> > >> > > > Egor Pasko
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --
> > >> > > Egor Pasko
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Egor Pasko
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Egor Pasko
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Egor Pasko
> 

-- 
Egor Pasko


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