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From Egor Pasko <egor.pa...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated
Date Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:29:59 GMT
On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> Good day to you, Egor! 

evening, dark and snowy evening :)

> What do you say about the getting started doc?

I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates near
the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in
extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra
HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page).

I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to Pavel
Ozhdikhin here.

BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement from
him:
1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it with
links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get to the
desired TLP :)
2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be reported
to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like
"support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing list :)

> Thank you, 
> Nadya Morozova
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM
> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> outdated
> 
> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > Egor,
> > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the site -
> > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether we need
> > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I hope the
> > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine. However,
> > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors. 
> > 
> > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented page. There,
> > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>, <link>build</link>
> the
> > code. After which, they can start using it just as any other
> > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see our
> > <link>wiki</link> pages.
> > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following options...
> > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the
> > <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains an answer -
> > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>. 
> > .. or something like that :) 
> 
> Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I woke up
> and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And could
> not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side collection
> of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level navigation
> and contains almost all links you listed here.
> 
> This was a really refreshing morning :)
> 
> I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel about the
> site. And will report back, if I find something.
> 
> Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
> 
> > Thank you, 
> > Nadya Morozova
> >  
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
> > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> > outdated
> > 
> > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Egor,
> > > > +1 for
> > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of links to
> > the
> > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions ("Site
> Map"
> > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating around in
> the
> > web.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > We already have one page having links to the resources about DRLVM:
> > > http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
> > > Why do you think we need another one?
> > 
> > because it is only DRLVM.
> > I think of something like "site map", a collection of links. Short
> > descriptions to some basic ones.
> > 
> > > 
> > > +1 for
> > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting the
> word
> > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only options? What
> > about
> > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we have
> separate
> > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I think we can describe basic options for every component there.
> Only
> > those
> > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for other options
> is
> > in
> > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component.
> > 
> > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly be
> > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them by
> > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me. 
> > 
> > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out.
> > 
> > I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
> > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
> > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
> > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
> > 
> > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about JITs
> > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate problems, which
> > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster.
> > 
> > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by me. If
> > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly and make
> > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about that?
> > 
> > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of limit
> > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Pavel
> > > 
> > > Thank you,
> > > > Nadya Morozova
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM
> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL"
> is
> > > > outdated
> > > >
> > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > > > > All,
> > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of outdated
> > Getting
> > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate the page
> as
> > > > such.
> > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents, change structure, and
> > update
> > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully before removing the
> > page.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed to help a
> > newbie
> > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested in other
> > > > things
> > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. However, we
> > should
> > > > also
> > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is now the
> *only*
> > doc
> > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people how to
> > download
> > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to run and configure
> (with
> > the
> > > > > exception of EM/JIT).
> > > > >
> > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you want to tell people
> > about
> > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store this info
> on
> > the
> > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and support in
> this
> > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be inobjective and
> > > > > emotional :)
> > > >
> > > > Nadya,
> > > >
> > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows how to use
> > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are happy
> that
> > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
> > > >
> > > > So, I vote for:
> > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of irritating
> windows
> > > > screenshots:)
> > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting the
> word
> > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > > >
> > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of links to
> > the
> > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions ("Site
> Map"
> > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating around in
> the
> > web.
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM
> > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
> DRL"
> > is
> > > > > outdated
> > > > >
> > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's hard to
> support
> > it
> > > > :)
> > > > > More problems:
> > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
> > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
> > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users expect Harmony
> > VM is
> > > > > able
> > > > > to run the same apps as RI..
> > > > > ?
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello all,
> > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started with
> > > > > > DRL<
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started.
> > > > > html
> > > > > > >"
> > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found it completely outdated,
> > for
> > > > > example:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM
> > > > > >    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we don't need
> > them
> > > > > anymore
> > > > > >    to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the same way
> as
> > with
> > > > > any
> > > > > > other
> > > > > >    VM.
> > > > > >    - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH anymore,
at
> > least
> > > > > on
> > > > > >    Windows/MSVC
> > > > > >    - ij was renamed to java
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We took a big step to unification with other Java VMs and now
> > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for example.
> > After
> > > > > > removing
> > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would contain only the list
> of
> > > > > > command-line
> > > > > > options. I think we can move this list to a separate document
> > (Wiki,
> > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started" itself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any opinions?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Pavel
> > > > > > <
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started.
> > > > > html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Mikhail Fursov
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Egor Pasko
> > > >
> > 
> > -- 
> > Egor Pasko
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Egor Pasko
> 

-- 
Egor Pasko


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