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From "Morozova, Nadezhda" <nadezhda.moroz...@intel.com>
Subject RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated
Date Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:42:41 GMT

>-----Original Message-----
>From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:40 PM
>To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
>outdated
>
>On the 0x220 day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>> Ok,
>> I'll use http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HARMONY-2150 to get an
>> initial patch for the getting started document, and we can then work
to
>> improve it.
>
>OK, I am "watching" it
>
>> Let's make it a short page with links to wiki and maybe some how-tos.
>
>To summarize:
>* we agreed that there will be no eclipse screenshots (they are for
>  eclipse+drlvm page)
>* we agreed that there should be something like "see what kind of
>  links we have"
>
>Am I right?

[Nadya] 
Yop, quite right. An additional enhancement would be to comment out
copyrights and update info that is incorrect.
Not sure I'll fix everything, but can give a start. Thanks for all your
help.

>
>> Thank you,
>> Nadya Morozova
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:10 AM
>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
>> outdated
>>
>> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>> > Egor,
>> > I think we're mixing things up a bit, or at least our perceptions
of
>> > various docs. I'd not call what you're suggesting a tutorial - it's
>> more
>> > of a howto doc, right? We are lucky to have Salikh write this "How
to
>> > write a GC?" Doc - do you mean something similar for "DRLVM
>> Command-line
>> > Args Tutorial"?
>>
>> on Wikipedia:
>> * A _how-to_ is an informal, often short, description of how to
>> accomplish
>>   some specific task
>> * A _tutorial_ is a document, software, or other media created for
the
>>   purpose of instruction for any of a wide variety of tasks
>>
>> yes, I mix those terms :)
>>
>> > As suggested earlier, we can store drlvm+eclipse specifics on
another
>> > page = see JIRA 2009. cmd options reference is on wiki, but a short
>> > howto will be marvelous - illustrating usage of common options,
>> solving
>> > typical problems by using our vm correctly, etc.
>> > Does anybody volunteer to help?
>>
>> let's collect the options first. To choose between them for the howto
>>
>> > Thank you,
>> > Nadya Morozova
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>> > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:06 PM
>> > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL"
is
>> > outdated
>> >
>> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>> > > Alexei,
>> > > Tutorials might be fine for mature projects, but I do not think
ours
>> > is
>> > > ready for a big flow of users yet, that would require a tutorial.
>> >
>> > we _are_ mature for a small tutorial :)
>> >
>> > > So +1 for having a nice good  tutorial ... one day.
>> > > If there are volunteers to write the tutorial now, I'd be happy
to
>> > help
>> > > though.
>> >
>> > well, actually, I love tutorials too, especially the one for VIM :)
>> > some contraversal inside me..fighting..done
>> >
>> > let's then say "A Short Eclipse Tutorial with Harmony", and then
>> > "DRLVM Command-line Args Tutorial". Howabout that?
>> >
>> > > Thank you,
>> > > Nadya Morozova
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Fedotov, Alexei A [mailto:alexei.a.fedotov@intel.com]
>> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:40 PM
>> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > Subject: RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
>> DRL"
>> > is
>> > > outdated
>> > >
>> > > Guys,
>> > >
>> > > I like good tutorials. I learned VIM using a tutorial. I don't
need
>> > the
>> > > VIM tutorial any longer, but at the beginning it was useful.
>> > >
>> > > 	+1 for maintain Getting Started as is with minor changes
>> > >
>> > > Why Eclipse was chosen for the tutorial? Our goal was to use
Harmony
>> > for
>> > > Harmony development. I liked that idea.
>> > >
>> > > With best regards,
>> > > Alexei Fedotov,
>> > > Intel Java & XML Engineering
>> > >
>> > > >-----Original Message-----
>> > > >From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>> > > >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM
>> > > >To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > >Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
DRL"
>> is
>> > > >outdated
>> > > >
>> > > >On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
>> > > >> Nadya,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all
>> current
>> > > >content
>> > > >> and write something like following:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other
>> Java
>> > > >> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here
goes
>> > > link to
>> > > >> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM.
For
>> > > >commonly
>> > > >> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link
to
>> > > >Salikh's
>> > > >> page or to the document)."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> What do you think?
>> > > >
>> > > >1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :)
>> > > >
>> > > >> Thanks,
>> > > >> Pavel
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko
<egor.pasko@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>> > > >> > > Good day to you, Egor!
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > evening, dark and snowy evening :)
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > > What do you say about the getting started doc?
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony
operates
>> > near
>> > > >> > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics
is
>> in
>> > > >> > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an
extra
>> > > >> > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the
page).
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So,
+1
>> to
>> > > Pavel
>> > > >> > Ozhdikhin here.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for
>> improvement
>> > > from
>> > > >> > him:
>> > > >> > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat
has
>> it
>> > > with
>> > > >> > links to google search. We can have something as soon as
we
get
>> > to
>> > > the
>> > > >> > desired TLP :)
>> > > >> > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should
be
>> > > reported
>> > > >> > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like
>> > > >> > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the
>> mailing
>> > > list
>> > > >:)
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > > Thank you,
>> > > >> > > Nadya Morozova
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
Egor
>> Pasko
>> > > >> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM
>> > > >> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > >> > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
with
>> > DRL"
>> > > is
>> > > >> > > outdated
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova
wrote:
>> > > >> > > > Egor,
>> > > >> > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation
over
the
>> > site
>> > > -
>> > > >> > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not
sure
>> > whether
>> > > we
>> > > >need
>> > > >> > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance
info. I
>> > > hope
>> > > >the
>> > > >> > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly
fine.
>> > > However,
>> > > >> > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors.
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > Getting started could be a more specific
project-oriented
>> > page.
>> > > >There,
>> > > >> > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>,
>> > > <link>build</link>
>> > > >> > > the
>> > > >> > > > code. After which, they can start using it just
as any
>> other
>> > > >> > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With
the exceptions, see
>> our
>> > > >> > > > <link>wiki</link> pages.
>> > > >> > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following
>> > > options...
>> > > >> > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit
the
>> > > >> > > > <link>component</link> page. If no
website page contains
an
>> > > answer
>> > > >-
>> > > >> > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>.
>> > > >> > > > .. or something like that :)
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning
I
>> > woke
>> > > up
>> > > >> > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner.
And
>> > > could
>> > > >> > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side
>> > > collection
>> > > >> > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level
>> > > navigation
>> > > >> > > and contains almost all links you listed here.
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > This was a really refreshing morning :)
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they
feel
>> > > about
>> > > >the
>> > > >> > > site. And will report back, if I find something.
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > > Thank you,
>> > > >> > > > Nadya Morozova
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf
Of Egor
>> > Pasko
>> > > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
>> > > >> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > >> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting
started
>> with
>> > > DRL"
>> > > >is
>> > > >> > > > outdated
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin
wrote:
>> > > >> > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda
>> > <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com>
>> > > >wrote:
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > Egor,
>> > > >> > > > > > +1 for
>> > > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain
a
collection
>> of
>> > > links
>> > > >to
>> > > >> > > > the
>> > > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with
short
>> descriptions
>> > > ("Site
>> > > >> > > Map"
>> > > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable
floating
>> > > around in
>> > > >> > > the
>> > > >> > > > web.
>> > > >> > > > >
>> > > >> > > > >
>> > > >> > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > We already have one page having links to the
resources
>> > about
>> > > >DRLVM:
>> > > >> > > > >
>> > >
>http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
>> > > >> > > > > Why do you think we need another one?
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > because it is only DRLVM.
>> > > >> > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection
of
>> links.
>> > > Short
>> > > >> > > > descriptions to some basic ones.
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > +1 for
>> > > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options
for DRLVM"
>> > (omitting
>> > > the
>> > > >> > > word
>> > > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
>> > > >> > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain
vm-only
>> > > options?
>> > > >What
>> > > >> > > > about
>> > > >> > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in
one place, but
we
>> > have
>> > > >> > > separate
>> > > >> > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
>> > > >> > > > >
>> > > >> > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > I think we can describe basic options for
every
component
>> > > there.
>> > > >> > > Only
>> > > >> > > > those
>> > > >> > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The
place for
>> other
>> > > >options
>> > > >> > > is
>> > > >> > > > in
>> > > >> > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for
a
component.
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They
can
>> possibly
>> > be
>> > > >> > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would
group
>> them
>> > by
>> > > >> > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance
for
>> > me.
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it
out.
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
>> > > >> > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
>> > > >> > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
>> > > >> > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to
know
about
>> > JITs
>> > > >> > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate
>> > problems,
>> > > >which
>> > > >> > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input
faster.
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly
used
>> by
>> > > me. If
>> > > >> > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them
up
quickly
>> > and
>> > > >make
>> > > >> > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options.
How
about
>> > that?
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options
is a
kind
>> of
>> > > limit
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > > Thanks,
>> > > >> > > > > Pavel
>> > > >> > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > Thank you,
>> > > >> > > > > > Nadya Morozova
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> > > > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org]
On Behalf Of
>> Egor
>> > > Pasko
>> > > >> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51
AM
>> > > >> > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document
"Getting
started
>> > > with
>> > > >DRL"
>> > > >> > > is
>> > > >> > > > > > outdated
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda
Morozova
>> > wrote:
>> > > >> > > > > > > All,
>> > > >> > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief
at the sight of
>> > > outdated
>> > > >> > > > Getting
>> > > >> > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not
hurry to
eliminate
>> > the
>> > > >page
>> > > >> > > as
>> > > >> > > > > > such.
>> > > >> > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its
contents, change
>> > > structure,
>> > > >and
>> > > >> > > > update
>> > > >> > > > > > > individual bits, but please think
carefully before
>> > > removing
>> > > >the
>> > > >> > > > page.
>> > > >> > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the
title shows) is
aimed
>> > to
>> > > help
>> > > >a
>> > > >> > > > newbie
>> > > >> > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many
primarily
>> interested
>> > > in
>> > > >other
>> > > >> > > > > > things
>> > > >> > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal
specifics.
>> > However,
>> > > we
>> > > >> > > > should
>> > > >> > > > > > also
>> > > >> > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK,
Getting started
is
>> now
>> > > the
>> > > >> > > *only*
>> > > >> > > > doc
>> > > >> > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our
vm. You tell
people
>> > how
>> > > to
>> > > >> > > > download
>> > > >> > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about
how to run and
>> > > configure
>> > > >> > > (with
>> > > >> > > > the
>> > > >> > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT).
>> > > >> > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think
of what you want
to
>> > tell
>> > > >people
>> > > >> > > > about
>> > > >> > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse
specifics. And
store
>> > this
>> > > >info
>> > > >> > > on
>> > > >> > > > the
>> > > >> > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I
offer my help and
>> > support
>> > > in
>> > > >> > > this
>> > > >> > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts?
i might be
>> > > inobjective
>> > > >and
>> > > >> > > > > > > emotional :)
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > Nadya,
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across
Harmony
knows
>> > how
>> > > to
>> > > >use
>> > > >> > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility,
and we
>> are
>> > > happy
>> > > >> > > that
>> > > >> > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > So, I vote for:
>> > > >> > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also
because of
>> > > irritating
>> > > >> > > windows
>> > > >> > > > > > screenshots:)
>> > > >> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options
for DRLVM"
>> > (omitting
>> > > the
>> > > >> > > word
>> > > >> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain
a
collection
>> of
>> > > links
>> > > >to
>> > > >> > > > the
>> > > >> > > > > > main website and other resources with
short
>> descriptions
>> > > ("Site
>> > > >> > > Map"
>> > > >> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable
floating
>> > > around in
>> > > >> > > the
>> > > >> > > > web.
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov
[mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
>> > > >> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006
6:03 PM
>> > > >> > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document
"Getting
>> started
>> > > with
>> > > >> > > DRL"
>> > > >> > > > is
>> > > >> > > > > > > outdated
>> > > >> > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation
once, it's
>> hard
>> > > to
>> > > >> > > support
>> > > >> > > > it
>> > > >> > > > > > :)
>> > > >> > > > > > > More problems:
>> > > >> > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
>> > > >> > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
>> > > >> > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today?
AFAIU users
>> > expect
>> > > >Harmony
>> > > >> > > > VM is
>> > > >> > > > > > > able
>> > > >> > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI..
>> > > >> > > > > > > ?
>> > > >> > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin
>> <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com>
>> > > >wrote:
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > > Hello all,
>> > > >> > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting
Started with
>> > > >> > > > > > > > DRL<
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
>> > > .
>> > > >> > > > > > > html
>> > > >> > > > > > > > >"
>> > > >> > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web
and found it
completely
>> > > >outdated,
>> > > >> > > > for
>> > > >> > > > > > > example:
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > >    - the term DRL is used instead
of DRLVM
>> > > >> > > > > > > >    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh
are obsolete -
we
>> > don't
>> > > >need
>> > > >> > > > them
>> > > >> > > > > > > anymore
>> > > >> > > > > > > >    to run Eclipse. It can be
started with DRLVM
the
>> > > same
>> > > >way
>> > > >> > > as
>> > > >> > > > with
>> > > >> > > > > > > any
>> > > >> > > > > > > > other
>> > > >> > > > > > > >    VM.
>> > > >> > > > > > > >    - We don't need to set PATH
and
LD_LIBRARY_PATH
>> > > anymore,
>> > > >at
>> > > >> > > > least
>> > > >> > > > > > > on
>> > > >> > > > > > > >    Windows/MSVC
>> > > >> > > > > > > >    - ij was renamed to java
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification
with other
Java
>> VMs
>> > > and
>> > > >now
>> > > >> > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific
to run Eclipse,
for
>> > > >example.
>> > > >> > > > After
>> > > >> > > > > > > > removing
>> > > >> > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document
would contain
only
>> > the
>> > > >list
>> > > >> > > of
>> > > >> > > > > > > > command-line
>> > > >> > > > > > > > options. I think we can move
this list to a
>> separate
>> > > >document
>> > > >> > > > (Wiki,
>> > > >> > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove
the "Getting
>> Started"
>> > > >itself.
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > > Any opinions?
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > >> > > > > > > > Pavel
>> > > >> > > > > > > > <
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
>> > > .
>> > > >> > > > > > > html
>> > > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > > --
>> > > >> > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov
>> > > >> > > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > > > > --
>> > > >> > > > > > Egor Pasko
>> > > >> > > > > >
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > > --
>> > > >> > > > Egor Pasko
>> > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> > > --
>> > > >> > > Egor Pasko
>> > > >> > >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > --
>> > > >> > Egor Pasko
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >
>> > > >--
>> > > >Egor Pasko
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Egor Pasko
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Egor Pasko
>>
>
>--
>Egor Pasko

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