harmony-dev mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From "Morozova, Nadezhda" <nadezhda.moroz...@intel.com>
Subject RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated
Date Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:35:48 GMT
See below.

Thank you, 
Nadya Morozova
 

-----Original Message-----
From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:39 PM
To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
outdated

On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> +1 for having some getting started info on a separate page. 
> There are some things that need to stand out promptly, and probably
> newbie info is one of them (I mean, I'd want to have such a page when
I
> got started with this project). 

you mean, the left-side collection _does not suit_ as "getting started"
info? To me it is fine, I am a bad judge here though (far from beginner)

[nm] the navigation is fine for a contributor to the project, but might
not be friendly for someone starting with using our vm. The navigation
leads to many places, including the ones such a reader needs. But I have
had a feeling that I understand how the developer's project works
without having a clear idea of how to start using what they are
producing. It's a personal experience only - and of a time long gone :) 

> We can expand the text suggested by Pavel by adding:
> * links to nice tutorials for other vms

volunteers to make the list are welcome. I cannot remember a single
example, sorry.

[nm] that's bad. If we don't know good detailed tutorials that equally
apply to us, we'd have to write one ourselves!

> * a short section to say how is a vm used with a couple of examples;
> this won't take too much effort/maintenance but would be a nice clear
> intro, that's not another click away on some site of another project

do "Harmony in Eclipse" and "DRLVM Command-line Tutorial" solve the
problem?

[nm] see my other response to you on the same thread.

> Thank you, 
> Nadya Morozova
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM
> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> outdated
> 
> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> > Nadya,
> > 
> > One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current
> content
> > and write something like following:
> > 
> > "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java
> > implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes
link
> to
> > readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For
> commonly
> > used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to
> Salikh's
> > page or to the document)."
> > 
> > What do you think?
> 
> 1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :)
> 
> > Thanks,
> > Pavel
> > 
> > 
> > On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > > > Good day to you, Egor!
> > >
> > > evening, dark and snowy evening :)
> > >
> > > > What do you say about the getting started doc?
> > >
> > > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates
near
> > > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in
> > > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra
> > > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page).
> > >
> > > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to
> Pavel
> > > Ozhdikhin here.
> > >
> > > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement
> from
> > > him:
> > > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it
> with
> > > links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get to
> the
> > > desired TLP :)
> > > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be
reported
> > > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like
> > > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing
> list :)
> > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > > Nadya Morozova
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM
> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
DRL"
> is
> > > > outdated
> > > >
> > > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > > > > Egor,
> > > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the
site
> -
> > > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether
> we need
> > > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I
hope
> the
> > > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine.
> However,
> > > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors.
> > > > >
> > > > > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented
page.
> There,
> > > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>,
> <link>build</link>
> > > > the
> > > > > code. After which, they can start using it just as any other
> > > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions,
see our
> > > > > <link>wiki</link> pages.
> > > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following
> options...
> > > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the
> > > > > <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains
an
> answer -
> > > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>.
> > > > > .. or something like that :)
> > > >
> > > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I
woke
> up
> > > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And
> could
> > > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side
> collection
> > > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level
> navigation
> > > > and contains almost all links you listed here.
> > > >
> > > > This was a really refreshing morning :)
> > > >
> > > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel
about
> the
> > > > site. And will report back, if I find something.
> > > >
> > > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
> > > >
> > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > Nadya Morozova
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
> > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
> DRL" is
> > > > > outdated
> > > > >
> > > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> > > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Egor,
> > > > > > > +1 for
> > > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
> links to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
> ("Site
> > > > Map"
> > > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
around
> in
> > > > the
> > > > > web.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We already have one page having links to the resources about
> DRLVM:
> > > > > >
> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
> > > > > > Why do you think we need another one?
> > > > >
> > > > > because it is only DRLVM.
> > > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection of links.
> Short
> > > > > descriptions to some basic ones.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1 for
> > > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM"
(omitting
> the
> > > > word
> > > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only
options?
> What
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we
have
> > > > separate
> > > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think we can describe basic options for every component
> there.
> > > > Only
> > > > > those
> > > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for other
> options
> > > > is
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component.
> > > > >
> > > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly
be
> > > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them
by
> > > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out.
> > > > >
> > > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
> > > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
> > > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
> > > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
> > > > >
> > > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about
JITs
> > > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate
problems,
> which
> > > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster.
> > > > >
> > > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by
me.
> If
> > > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly
and
> make
> > > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about
that?
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of
> limit
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Pavel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > > Nadya Morozova
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor
> Pasko
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM
> > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
with
> DRL"
> > > > is
> > > > > > > outdated
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova
wrote:
> > > > > > > > All,
> > > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of
> outdated
> > > > > Getting
> > > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate
the
> page
> > > > as
> > > > > > > such.
> > > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents, change
> structure, and
> > > > > update
> > > > > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully before
> removing the
> > > > > page.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed
to
> help a
> > > > > newbie
> > > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested
in
> other
> > > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics.
However,
> we
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is
now
> the
> > > > *only*
> > > > > doc
> > > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people
how
> to
> > > > > download
> > > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to run and
> configure
> > > > (with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you want to
tell
> people
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store
this
> info
> > > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and
support
> in
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be
> inobjective and
> > > > > > > > emotional :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nadya,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows
how
> to use
> > > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are
> happy
> > > > that
> > > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, I vote for:
> > > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of
irritating
> > > > windows
> > > > > > > screenshots:)
> > > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM"
(omitting
> the
> > > > word
> > > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
> links to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
> ("Site
> > > > Map"
> > > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
around
> in
> > > > the
> > > > > web.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM
> > > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
> with
> > > > DRL"
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > outdated
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's
hard
to
> > > > support
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > :)
> > > > > > > > More problems:
> > > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
> > > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
> > > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users
expect
> Harmony
> > > > > VM is
> > > > > > > > able
> > > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI..
> > > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hello all,
> > > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started with
> > > > > > > > > DRL<
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
>
http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started.
> > > > > > > > html
> > > > > > > > > >"
> > > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found it completely
> outdated,
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > example:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >    - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM
> > > > > > > > >    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete
- we
don't
> need
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > > anymore
> > > > > > > > >    to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM
the
same
> way
> > > > as
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > >    VM.
> > > > > > > > >    - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH
> anymore, at
> > > > > least
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > >    Windows/MSVC
> > > > > > > > >    - ij was renamed to java
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification with other
Java VMs
> and now
> > > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse,
for
> example.
> > > > > After
> > > > > > > > > removing
> > > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would contain
only
the
> list
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > command-line
> > > > > > > > > options. I think we can move this list to a separate
> document
> > > > > (Wiki,
> > > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started"
> itself.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Any opinions?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > Pavel
> > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
>
http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started.
> > > > > > > > html
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Egor Pasko
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Egor Pasko
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Egor Pasko
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Egor Pasko
> > >
> > >
> 
> -- 
> Egor Pasko
> 

-- 
Egor Pasko

Mime
View raw message