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From "Morozova, Nadezhda" <nadezhda.moroz...@intel.com>
Subject RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated
Date Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:29:56 GMT
+1 for having some getting started info on a separate page. 
There are some things that need to stand out promptly, and probably
newbie info is one of them (I mean, I'd want to have such a page when I
got started with this project). 

We can expand the text suggested by Pavel by adding:
* links to nice tutorials for other vms
* a short section to say how is a vm used with a couple of examples;
this won't take too much effort/maintenance but would be a nice clear
intro, that's not another click away on some site of another project

Thank you, 
Nadya Morozova
 

-----Original Message-----
From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM
To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
outdated

On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> Nadya,
> 
> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current
content
> and write something like following:
> 
> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java
> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes link
to
> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For
commonly
> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to
Salikh's
> page or to the document)."
> 
> What do you think?

1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :)

> Thanks,
> Pavel
> 
> 
> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > > Good day to you, Egor!
> >
> > evening, dark and snowy evening :)
> >
> > > What do you say about the getting started doc?
> >
> > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates near
> > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in
> > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra
> > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page).
> >
> > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to
Pavel
> > Ozhdikhin here.
> >
> > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement
from
> > him:
> > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it
with
> > links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get to
the
> > desired TLP :)
> > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be reported
> > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like
> > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing
list :)
> >
> > > Thank you,
> > > Nadya Morozova
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM
> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL"
is
> > > outdated
> > >
> > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > > > Egor,
> > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the site
-
> > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether
we need
> > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I hope
the
> > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine.
However,
> > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors.
> > > >
> > > > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented page.
There,
> > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>,
<link>build</link>
> > > the
> > > > code. After which, they can start using it just as any other
> > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see our
> > > > <link>wiki</link> pages.
> > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following
options...
> > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the
> > > > <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains an
answer -
> > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>.
> > > > .. or something like that :)
> > >
> > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I woke
up
> > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And
could
> > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side
collection
> > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level
navigation
> > > and contains almost all links you listed here.
> > >
> > > This was a really refreshing morning :)
> > >
> > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel about
the
> > > site. And will report back, if I find something.
> > >
> > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
> > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > > Nadya Morozova
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
DRL" is
> > > > outdated
> > > >
> > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
> > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Egor,
> > > > > > +1 for
> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
links to
> > > > the
> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
("Site
> > > Map"
> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating around
in
> > > the
> > > > web.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We already have one page having links to the resources about
DRLVM:
> > > > >
http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
> > > > > Why do you think we need another one?
> > > >
> > > > because it is only DRLVM.
> > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection of links.
Short
> > > > descriptions to some basic ones.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 for
> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting
the
> > > word
> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only options?
What
> > > > about
> > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we have
> > > separate
> > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we can describe basic options for every component
there.
> > > Only
> > > > those
> > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for other
options
> > > is
> > > > in
> > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component.
> > > >
> > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly be
> > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them by
> > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me.
> > > >
> > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out.
> > > >
> > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
> > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
> > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
> > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
> > > >
> > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about JITs
> > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate problems,
which
> > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster.
> > > >
> > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by me.
If
> > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly and
make
> > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about that?
> > > >
> > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of
limit
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Pavel
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > Nadya Morozova
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor
Pasko
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM
> > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
DRL"
> > > is
> > > > > > outdated
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
> > > > > > > All,
> > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of
outdated
> > > > Getting
> > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate the
page
> > > as
> > > > > > such.
> > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents, change
structure, and
> > > > update
> > > > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully before
removing the
> > > > page.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed to
help a
> > > > newbie
> > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested
in
other
> > > > > > things
> > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. However,
we
> > > > should
> > > > > > also
> > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is now
the
> > > *only*
> > > > doc
> > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people how
to
> > > > download
> > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to run and
configure
> > > (with
> > > > the
> > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you want to tell
people
> > > > about
> > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store this
info
> > > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and support
in
> > > this
> > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be
inobjective and
> > > > > > > emotional :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nadya,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows how
to use
> > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are
happy
> > > that
> > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, I vote for:
> > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of irritating
> > > windows
> > > > > > screenshots:)
> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting
the
> > > word
> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
links to
> > > > the
> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
("Site
> > > Map"
> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating around
in
> > > the
> > > > web.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM
> > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
with
> > > DRL"
> > > > is
> > > > > > > outdated
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's hard
to
> > > support
> > > > it
> > > > > > :)
> > > > > > > More problems:
> > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
> > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
> > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users expect
Harmony
> > > > VM is
> > > > > > > able
> > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI..
> > > > > > > ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hello all,
> > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started with
> > > > > > > > DRL<
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started.
> > > > > > > html
> > > > > > > > >"
> > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found it completely
outdated,
> > > > for
> > > > > > > example:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM
> > > > > > > >    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we
don't
need
> > > > them
> > > > > > > anymore
> > > > > > > >    to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the
same
way
> > > as
> > > > with
> > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > >    VM.
> > > > > > > >    - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH
anymore, at
> > > > least
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > >    Windows/MSVC
> > > > > > > >    - ij was renamed to java
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification with other Java
VMs
and now
> > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for
example.
> > > > After
> > > > > > > > removing
> > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would contain only
the
list
> > > of
> > > > > > > > command-line
> > > > > > > > options. I think we can move this list to a separate
document
> > > > (Wiki,
> > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started"
itself.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any opinions?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Pavel
> > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started.
> > > > > > > html
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Egor Pasko
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Egor Pasko
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Egor Pasko
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Egor Pasko
> >
> >

-- 
Egor Pasko

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