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From "Morozova, Nadezhda" <nadezhda.moroz...@intel.com>
Subject RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated
Date Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:25:25 GMT
Alexei,
Tutorials might be fine for mature projects, but I do not think ours is
ready for a big flow of users yet, that would require a tutorial.
So +1 for having a nice good  tutorial ... one day. 
If there are volunteers to write the tutorial now, I'd be happy to help
though.

Thank you, 
Nadya Morozova
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Fedotov, Alexei A [mailto:alexei.a.fedotov@intel.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:40 PM
To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
outdated

Guys,

I like good tutorials. I learned VIM using a tutorial. I don't need the
VIM tutorial any longer, but at the beginning it was useful.

	+1 for maintain Getting Started as is with minor changes

Why Eclipse was chosen for the tutorial? Our goal was to use Harmony for
Harmony development. I liked that idea.

With best regards,
Alexei Fedotov,
Intel Java & XML Engineering

>-----Original Message-----
>From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM
>To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
>outdated
>
>On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
>> Nadya,
>>
>> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current
>content
>> and write something like following:
>>
>> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java
>> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes
link to
>> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For
>commonly
>> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to
>Salikh's
>> page or to the document)."
>>
>> What do you think?
>
>1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :)
>
>> Thanks,
>> Pavel
>>
>>
>> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> >
>> > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>> > > Good day to you, Egor!
>> >
>> > evening, dark and snowy evening :)
>> >
>> > > What do you say about the getting started doc?
>> >
>> > I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates near
>> > the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in
>> > extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra
>> > HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page).
>> >
>> > I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to
Pavel
>> > Ozhdikhin here.
>> >
>> > BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement
from
>> > him:
>> > 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it
with
>> > links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get to
the
>> > desired TLP :)
>> > 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be
reported
>> > to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like
>> > "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing
list
>:)
>> >
>> > > Thank you,
>> > > Nadya Morozova
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM
>> > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL"
is
>> > > outdated
>> > >
>> > > On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>> > > > Egor,
>> > > > I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the site
-
>> > > > there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether
we
>need
>> > > > yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I
hope
>the
>> > > > starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine.
However,
>> > > > adding a link here and there to lead site visitors.
>> > > >
>> > > > Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented page.
>There,
>> > > > you can tell people to go <link>download</link>,
<link>build</link>
>> > > the
>> > > > code. After which, they can start using it just as any other
>> > > > <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see
our
>> > > > <link>wiki</link> pages.
>> > > > To use the vm, readers might need to use the following
options...
>> > > > If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the
>> > > > <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains
an
answer
>-
>> > > > they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>.
>> > > > .. or something like that :)
>> > >
>> > > Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I woke
up
>> > > and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And
could
>> > > not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side
collection
>> > > of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level
navigation
>> > > and contains almost all links you listed here.
>> > >
>> > > This was a really refreshing morning :)
>> > >
>> > > I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel
about
>the
>> > > site. And will report back, if I find something.
>> > >
>> > > Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
>> > >
>> > > > Thank you,
>> > > > Nadya Morozova
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
>> > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
DRL"
>is
>> > > > outdated
>> > > >
>> > > > On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
>> > > > > On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com>
>wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Egor,
>> > > > > > +1 for
>> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
links
>to
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
("Site
>> > > Map"
>> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
around in
>> > > the
>> > > > web.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > We already have one page having links to the resources about
>DRLVM:
>> > > > >
>http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
>> > > > > Why do you think we need another one?
>> > > >
>> > > > because it is only DRLVM.
>> > > > I think of something like "site map", a collection of links.
Short
>> > > > descriptions to some basic ones.
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > +1 for
>> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting
the
>> > > word
>> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
>> > > > > > Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only
options?
>What
>> > > > about
>> > > > > > JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we have
>> > > separate
>> > > > > > docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I think we can describe basic options for every component
there.
>> > > Only
>> > > > those
>> > > > > that might be interesting for any user. The place for other
>options
>> > > is
>> > > > in
>> > > > > the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component.
>> > > >
>> > > > I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly be
>> > > > grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them by
>> > > > use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me.
>> > > >
>> > > > So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out.
>> > > >
>> > > > I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
>> > > > "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
>> > > > "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
>> > > > "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
>> > > >
>> > > > The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about JITs
>> > > > switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate problems,
>which
>> > > > helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster.
>> > > >
>> > > > Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by
me. If
>> > > > many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly and
>make
>> > > > a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about that?
>> > > >
>> > > > BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of
limit
>> > > >
>> > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > Pavel
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thank you,
>> > > > > > Nadya Morozova
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor
Pasko
>> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM
>> > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
with
>DRL"
>> > > is
>> > > > > > outdated
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>> > > > > > > All,
>> > > > > > > I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of
outdated
>> > > > Getting
>> > > > > > > Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate
the
>page
>> > > as
>> > > > > > such.
>> > > > > > > We might reconsider some of its contents, change
structure,
>and
>> > > > update
>> > > > > > > individual bits, but please think carefully before
removing
>the
>> > > > page.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed
to
help
>a
>> > > > newbie
>> > > > > > > work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested
in
>other
>> > > > > > things
>> > > > > > > - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. However,
we
>> > > > should
>> > > > > > also
>> > > > > > > think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is
now
the
>> > > *only*
>> > > > doc
>> > > > > > > that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people
how
to
>> > > > download
>> > > > > > > and build, but almost nothing about how to run and
configure
>> > > (with
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > > exception of EM/JIT).
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > My suggestion would be to think of what you want to
tell
>people
>> > > > about
>> > > > > > > usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store
this
>info
>> > > on
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > > page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and support
in
>> > > this
>> > > > > > > burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be
inobjective
>and
>> > > > > > > emotional :)
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Nadya,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows how
to
>use
>> > > > > > J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are
happy
>> > > that
>> > > > > > all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > So, I vote for:
>> > > > > > * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of
irritating
>> > > windows
>> > > > > > screenshots:)
>> > > > > > * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting
the
>> > > word
>> > > > > > "supported" intentionally)
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
links
>to
>> > > > the
>> > > > > > main website and other resources with short descriptions
("Site
>> > > Map"
>> > > > > > or something) so that people are comfortable floating
around in
>> > > the
>> > > > web.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > > > From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
>> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM
>> > > > > > > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
with
>> > > DRL"
>> > > > is
>> > > > > > > outdated
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's
hard
to
>> > > support
>> > > > it
>> > > > > > :)
>> > > > > > > More problems:
>> > > > > > > 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
>> > > > > > > 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
>> > > > > > > 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users expect
>Harmony
>> > > > VM is
>> > > > > > > able
>> > > > > > > to run the same apps as RI..
>> > > > > > > ?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Hello all,
>> > > > > > > > I've read through the "Getting Started with
>> > > > > > > > DRL<
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
.
>> > > > > > > html
>> > > > > > > > >"
>> > > > > > > > document on the Harmony web and found it completely
>outdated,
>> > > > for
>> > > > > > > example:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >    - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM
>> > > > > > > >    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete -
we don't
>need
>> > > > them
>> > > > > > > anymore
>> > > > > > > >    to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM
the
same
>way
>> > > as
>> > > > with
>> > > > > > > any
>> > > > > > > > other
>> > > > > > > >    VM.
>> > > > > > > >    - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH
anymore,
>at
>> > > > least
>> > > > > > > on
>> > > > > > > >    Windows/MSVC
>> > > > > > > >    - ij was renamed to java
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > We took a big step to unification with other Java
VMs
and
>now
>> > > > > > > > we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse,
for
>example.
>> > > > After
>> > > > > > > > removing
>> > > > > > > > all irrelevant info the document would contain
only the
>list
>> > > of
>> > > > > > > > command-line
>> > > > > > > > options. I think we can move this list to a separate
>document
>> > > > (Wiki,
>> > > > > > > > Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started"
>itself.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Any opinions?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > > > Pavel
>> > > > > > > > <
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
.
>> > > > > > > html
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > Mikhail Fursov
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > --
>> > > > > > Egor Pasko
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Egor Pasko
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Egor Pasko
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Egor Pasko
>> >
>> >
>
>--
>Egor Pasko

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