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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <g...@pobox.com>
Subject Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated
Date Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:55:06 GMT


Morozova, Nadezhda wrote:
> Alexei,
> Tutorials might be fine for mature projects, but I do not think ours is
> ready for a big flow of users yet, that would require a tutorial.
> So +1 for having a nice good  tutorial ... one day. 
> If there are volunteers to write the tutorial now, I'd be happy to help
> though.

Isn't that what the getting started page for DRLVM is?  why take 
information away?  I agre, we should clean things up if they are wrong, 
but as long as it's organized, we should keep stuff.

geir

> 
> Thank you, 
> Nadya Morozova
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fedotov, Alexei A [mailto:alexei.a.fedotov@intel.com] 
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:40 PM
> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
> outdated
> 
> Guys,
> 
> I like good tutorials. I learned VIM using a tutorial. I don't need the
> VIM tutorial any longer, but at the beginning it was useful.
> 
> 	+1 for maintain Getting Started as is with minor changes
> 
> Why Eclipse was chosen for the tutorial? Our goal was to use Harmony for
> Harmony development. I liked that idea.
> 
> With best regards,
> Alexei Fedotov,
> Intel Java & XML Engineering
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:29 PM
>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
>> outdated
>>
>> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
>>> Nadya,
>>>
>>> One more proposal about "Getting Started": let's remove all current
>> content
>>> and write something like following:
>>>
>>> "To the moment we got rid of all major differences from other Java
>>> implementations, so to use DRLVM you can just build it (here goes
> link to
>>> readme with build instructions) and run as any other Java VM. For
>> commonly
>>> used command-line options please look into the Wiki page (link to
>> Salikh's
>>> page or to the document)."
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>> 1 page to hold only 4 lines of text? :)
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Pavel
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 Nov 2006 14:29:59 +0600, Egor Pasko <egor.pasko@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>>>>> Good day to you, Egor!
>>>> evening, dark and snowy evening :)
>>>>
>>>>> What do you say about the getting started doc?
>>>> I expressed it recently. General idea is that Harmony operates near
>>>> the same as other JSE implementations. Almost all specifics is in
>>>> extra options which we started collecting on Wiki for an extra
>>>> HOWTO-like page (BTW, thanks to Salikh for starting the page).
>>>>
>>>> I believe, it is time to remove the "Getting Started". So, +1 to
> Pavel
>>>> Ozhdikhin here.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, I asked my dad to look at the website. Ideas for improvement
> from
>>>> him:
>>>> 1) site-local search is useful for a beginner. Hm, Tomcat has it
> with
>>>> links to google search. We can have something as soon as we get to
> the
>>>> desired TLP :)
>>>> 2) it is not obvious that site misprints/problems should be
> reported
>>>> to the mailing list. Commercial websites have something like
>>>> "support/suggestions mailto". We can point mailto to the mailing
> list
>> :)
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Nadya Morozova
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:55 AM
>>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL"
> is
>>>>> outdated
>>>>>
>>>>> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>>>>>> Egor,
>>>>>> I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the site
> -
>>>>>> there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether
> we
>> need
>>>>>> yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I
> hope
>> the
>>>>>> starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine.
> However,
>>>>>> adding a link here and there to lead site visitors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented page.
>> There,
>>>>>> you can tell people to go <link>download</link>,
> <link>build</link>
>>>>> the
>>>>>> code. After which, they can start using it just as any other
>>>>>> <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions,
see our
>>>>>> <link>wiki</link> pages.
>>>>>> To use the vm, readers might need to use the following
> options...
>>>>>> If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the
>>>>>> <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains
an
> answer
>> -
>>>>>> they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>.
>>>>>> .. or something like that :)
>>>>> Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I woke
> up
>>>>> and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And
> could
>>>>> not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side
> collection
>>>>> of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level
> navigation
>>>>> and contains almost all links you listed here.
>>>>>
>>>>> This was a really refreshing morning :)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel
> about
>> the
>>>>> site. And will report back, if I find something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Nadya Morozova
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
>>>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with
> DRL"
>> is
>>>>>> outdated
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Egor,
>>>>>>>> +1 for
>>>>>>>> Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
> links
>> to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> main website and other resources with short descriptions
> ("Site
>>>>> Map"
>>>>>>>> or something) so that people are comfortable floating
> around in
>>>>> the
>>>>>> web.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We already have one page having links to the resources about
>> DRLVM:
>> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
>>>>>>> Why do you think we need another one?
>>>>>> because it is only DRLVM.
>>>>>> I think of something like "site map", a collection of links.
> Short
>>>>>> descriptions to some basic ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1 for
>>>>>>>> * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting
> the
>>>>> word
>>>>>>>> "supported" intentionally)
>>>>>>>> Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only
> options?
>> What
>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we have
>>>>> separate
>>>>>>>> docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think we can describe basic options for every component
> there.
>>>>> Only
>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> that might be interesting for any user. The place for other
>> options
>>>>> is
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component.
>>>>>> I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly be
>>>>>> grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them by
>>>>>> use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
>>>>>> "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
>>>>>> "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
>>>>>> "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about JITs
>>>>>> switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate problems,
>> which
>>>>>> helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by
> me. If
>>>>>> many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly and
>> make
>>>>>> a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of
> limit
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Pavel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>>> Nadya Morozova
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor
> Pasko
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM
>>>>>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
> with
>> DRL"
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> outdated
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>> I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of
> outdated
>>>>>> Getting
>>>>>>>>> Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate
the
>> page
>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> such.
>>>>>>>>> We might reconsider some of its contents, change
> structure,
>> and
>>>>>> update
>>>>>>>>> individual bits, but please think carefully before
> removing
>> the
>>>>>> page.
>>>>>>>>> I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed
to
> help
>> a
>>>>>> newbie
>>>>>>>>> work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested
> in
>> other
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>> - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. However,
> we
>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>> think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is now
> the
>>>>> *only*
>>>>>> doc
>>>>>>>>> that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people
how
> to
>>>>>> download
>>>>>>>>> and build, but almost nothing about how to run and
> configure
>>>>> (with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> exception of EM/JIT).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My suggestion would be to think of what you want to tell
>> people
>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store
this
>> info
>>>>> on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and support
> in
>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be
> inobjective
>> and
>>>>>>>>> emotional :)
>>>>>>>> Nadya,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows how
> to
>> use
>>>>>>>> J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are
> happy
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, I vote for:
>>>>>>>> * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of
> irritating
>>>>> windows
>>>>>>>> screenshots:)
>>>>>>>> * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting
> the
>>>>> word
>>>>>>>> "supported" intentionally)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of
> links
>> to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> main website and other resources with short descriptions
> ("Site
>>>>> Map"
>>>>>>>> or something) so that people are comfortable floating
> around in
>>>>> the
>>>>>> web.
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started
> with
>>>>> DRL"
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> outdated
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's hard
> to
>>>>> support
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>> More problems:
>>>>>>>>> 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
>>>>>>>>> 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
>>>>>>>>> 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users expect
>> Harmony
>>>>>> VM is
>>>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>>> to run the same apps as RI..
>>>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>> I've read through the "Getting Started with
>>>>>>>>>> DRL<
>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
> .
>>>>>>>>> html
>>>>>>>>>>> "
>>>>>>>>>> document on the Harmony web and found it completely
>> outdated,
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM
>>>>>>>>>>    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we
don't
>> need
>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>> anymore
>>>>>>>>>>    to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the
> same
>> way
>>>>> as
>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>    VM.
>>>>>>>>>>    - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH
> anymore,
>> at
>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>    Windows/MSVC
>>>>>>>>>>    - ij was renamed to java
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We took a big step to unification with other Java
VMs
> and
>> now
>>>>>>>>>> we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for
>> example.
>>>>>> After
>>>>>>>>>> removing
>>>>>>>>>> all irrelevant info the document would contain only
the
>> list
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> command-line
>>>>>>>>>> options. I think we can move this list to a separate
>> document
>>>>>> (Wiki,
>>>>>>>>>> Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started"
>> itself.
>>>>>>>>>> Any opinions?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Pavel
>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started
> .
>>>>>>>>> html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Mikhail Fursov
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Egor Pasko
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Egor Pasko
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Egor Pasko
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Egor Pasko
>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> Egor Pasko
> 

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