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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <g...@pobox.com>
Subject Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is outdated
Date Fri, 10 Nov 2006 14:46:05 GMT
We did put *some* thought into it ;)

geir

Egor Pasko wrote:
> On the 0x21D day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>> Egor,
>> I generally like the idea of improving navigation over the site -
>> there's never too much of that. However, I am not sure whether we need
>> yet another separate page for introductory/guidance info. I hope the
>> starting page + the generic pages we have are mostly fine. However,
>> adding a link here and there to lead site visitors. 
>>
>> Getting started could be a more specific project-oriented page. There,
>> you can tell people to go <link>download</link>, <link>build</link>
the
>> code. After which, they can start using it just as any other
>> <link>RI-compatible</link> jdk. With the exceptions, see our
>> <link>wiki</link> pages.
>> To use the vm, readers might need to use the following options...
>> If they want to read more on our VM, they can visit the
>> <link>component</link> page. If no website page contains an answer -
>> they can read <link>wiki faqa</link>. 
>> .. or something like that :) 
> 
> Nadya, I really appreciate our efforts :) But this morning I woke up
> and looked the site structure with the eye of a beginner. And could
> not find any obvius flaws in the main structure. Left-side collection
> of links is in a very good shape, good for beginner-level navigation
> and contains almost all links you listed here.
> 
> This was a really refreshing morning :)
> 
> I'll ask some guys who are new to the project, how they feel about the
> site. And will report back, if I find something.
> 
> Refreshing morning is over, now back to work..
> 
>> Thank you, 
>> Nadya Morozova
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:33 PM
>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
>> outdated
>>
>> On the 0x21C day of Apache Harmony Pavel Ozhdikhin wrote:
>>> On 11/9/06, Morozova, Nadezhda <nadezhda.morozova@intel.com> wrote:
>>>> Egor,
>>>> +1 for
>>>> Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of links to
>> the
>>>> main website and other resources with short descriptions ("Site Map"
>>>> or something) so that people are comfortable floating around in the
>> web.
>>>
>>>
>>> We already have one page having links to the resources about DRLVM:
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/index.html
>>> Why do you think we need another one?
>> because it is only DRLVM.
>> I think of something like "site map", a collection of links. Short
>> descriptions to some basic ones.
>>
>>> +1 for
>>>> * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting the word
>>>> "supported" intentionally)
>>>> Question on this one: will the page contain vm-only options? What
>> about
>>>> JIT, GC, other? I'd have them all in one place, but we have separate
>>>> docs for EM/jit stuff. What do you say?
>>>
>>> I think we can describe basic options for every component there. Only
>> those
>>> that might be interesting for any user. The place for other options is
>> in
>>> the run-time help or Developer's Guide for a component.
>> I thought of "most commonly used" options. They can possibly be
>> grouped by components, but not necessary. I would group them by
>> use-cases. BTW, "any user" is not an obvious substance for me. 
>>
>> So, the list is not obvious, we need to work it out.
>>
>> I see it like HOWTOs. For example:
>> "-Xem:jet <- use only baseline JIT compiler"
>> "-Xem:opt <- use only optimising JIT compiler"
>> "-Xtrace:em <- print method compilation events"
>>
>> The 'big' question is: "does 'any user' need to know about JITs
>> switching?". I say YES, it helps users to investigate problems, which
>> helps us, developers, to react on users' input faster.
>>
>> Other options? I can enlist the set of most commonly used by me. If
>> many of us put their lists here, we can sum them up quickly and make
>> a good (really useful) list of popular options. How about that?
>>
>> BTW, the list should not be too big. 25 options is a kind of limit
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Pavel
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>> Nadya Morozova
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Egor Pasko
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:51 AM
>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL" is
>>>> outdated
>>>>
>>>> On the 0x21B day of Apache Harmony Nadezhda Morozova wrote:
>>>>> All,
>>>>> I'd like to share everyone's grief at the sight of outdated
>> Getting
>>>>> Started document. However, I'd not hurry to eliminate the page as
>>>> such.
>>>>> We might reconsider some of its contents, change structure, and
>> update
>>>>> individual bits, but please think carefully before removing the
>> page.
>>>>> I think Getting Started (as the title shows) is aimed to help a
>> newbie
>>>>> work with our vm. I know that many primarily interested in other
>>>> things
>>>>> - conformance, architecture, internal specifics. However, we
>> should
>>>> also
>>>>> think how the vm is used. AFAIK, Getting started is now the *only*
>> doc
>>>>> that tries to show how to use our vm. You tell people how to
>> download
>>>>> and build, but almost nothing about how to run and configure (with
>> the
>>>>> exception of EM/JIT).
>>>>>
>>>>> My suggestion would be to think of what you want to tell people
>> about
>>>>> usage - with or without eclipse specifics. And store this info on
>> the
>>>>> page. I know it is hard - and I offer my help and support in this
>>>>> burdensome initiative. Any thoughts? i might be inobjective and
>>>>> emotional :)
>>>> Nadya,
>>>>
>>>> I believe, almost everyone coming across Harmony knows how to use
>>>> J5SE. We are striving for this compatibility, and we are happy that
>>>> all DRLVM-specific pecularities are gone.
>>>>
>>>> So, I vote for:
>>>> * removing the "Getting Started" (also because of irritating windows
>>>> screenshots:)
>>>> * preparing the "Commonly Used Options for DRLVM" (omitting the word
>>>> "supported" intentionally)
>>>>
>>>> Just idea: "Getting Started" may contain a collection of links to
>> the
>>>> main website and other resources with short descriptions ("Site Map"
>>>> or something) so that people are comfortable floating around in the
>> web.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Mikhail Fursov [mailto:mike.fursov@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:03 PM
>>>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [doc][drlvm] The document "Getting started with DRL"
>> is
>>>>> outdated
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not a hard to write a documenation once, it's hard to support
>> it
>>>> :)
>>>>> More problems:
>>>>> 1) -Xem options are obsolete.
>>>>> 2) -Xjit options are also obsolete.
>>>>> 3) Do we really need this page today? AFAIU users expect Harmony
>> VM is
>>>>> able
>>>>> to run the same apps as RI..
>>>>> ?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/8/06, Pavel Ozhdikhin <pavel.ozhdikhin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>> I've read through the "Getting Started with
>>>>>> DRL<
>>>>>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started.
>>>>> html
>>>>>>> "
>>>>>> document on the Harmony web and found it completely outdated,
>> for
>>>>> example:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - the term DRL is used instead of DRLVM
>>>>>>    - eclipse.bat and eclipse.sh are obsolete - we don't need
>> them
>>>>> anymore
>>>>>>    to run Eclipse. It can be started with DRLVM the same way as
>> with
>>>>> any
>>>>>> other
>>>>>>    VM.
>>>>>>    - We don't need to set PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH anymore, at
>> least
>>>>> on
>>>>>>    Windows/MSVC
>>>>>>    - ij was renamed to java
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We took a big step to unification with other Java VMs and now
>>>>>> we don't need anything specific to run Eclipse, for example.
>> After
>>>>>> removing
>>>>>> all irrelevant info the document would contain only the list of
>>>>>> command-line
>>>>>> options. I think we can move this list to a separate document
>> (Wiki,
>>>>>> Developer's Guide?) and remove the "Getting Started" itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any opinions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Pavel
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/drlvm/getting_started.
>>>>> html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mikhail Fursov
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Egor Pasko
>>>>
>> -- 
>> Egor Pasko
>>
> 

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