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From Geir Magnusson Jr <g...@pobox.com>
Subject Re: Releationship to GNU Classpath?
Date Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:33:40 GMT


theUser BL wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Can anybody at Harmony say, whats the releationship (or
> non-releationship) to GNU Classpath is?

There is no official relationship, but there's lots of awareness and
chatter.  It's not as strong/robust/whatever as I'd like, and it's
something to work on.

> 
> At the beginning of Apache Harmony it sounds, that Harmony would use GNU
> Classpath for its class libraries.

No - we certainly didn't commit to anything of the sort, but certainly
there was and continues to be interest in working together on common
solutions to modularity and VM/classlib interface, setting us up for a
time when the GPL gets fixed next year ;) so users have freedom to
intermix code.

> 
> But since Intel have spend Harmony its own Swing implementation, it is
> clear, that there would existing two OpenSource Java-implementations:
> GNU Classpath based VMs and Apache Harmony.

Clearly.  There are actually more than two, depending on how you think
about it.  There is Apache Harmony, which will be full Java SE (vm and
classlib) and then you'll probably see combinations, assuming people go
and get the TCK and test :

GNUClasspath + Kaffe
GNUClasspath + JamVM
...
GNUCLasspath + HarmonyVM

and hopefully

Harmony Classlib + Kaffe
....


> 
> Thats the comment of someone from GNU Classpath, how its poit of view
> about Harmony and GNU Classpath is:
> http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=14198&comment_id=110641
> 
> And here are two blog-entries:
> http://metastatic.org/text/Concern/2006/05/30/harmony/
> http://kennke.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/2006/05/30#harmony-jfc

I posted a response to the first one, as I thought the characterization
was unfair, as I think the author didn't really follow the project that
closely.

Yes, we are getting big contributions and yes, it's helping us move
forward fast, and no, I certainly won't apologize for it.  All of the
work that happens once software reaches Harmony is done in the open, on
our mail lists, our JIRA and our Wiki....  it's an Apache project.

> 
> The situation is the following:
> GNU Classpath and Apache Harmony are both OpenSource projects to create
> an OpenSource Java.
> So, both have the same goal.

Yes - helping prove one of the nice aspects of the Java ecosystem, that
it's spec based, and multiple independent implementations can be created
to give users choices.

> 
> Then there existing developer, who writes code for Harmony and others
> who writes code for GNU Classpath. Thats duplicated work. And if both
> groups would working on _one_ class-implementation together, they could
> be faster then, if both groups would reinvent the wheel itself.

Sure it's duplicated work, but choice and diversity is good.   People
are volunteering their time/resources so it's hard to tell them "no".

I think the whole Java ecosystem benefits from this.

> 
> Is the reason the different licenses?
> 

That's certainly a reason for some people.

> Then Miguel de Icaze is right, if he wrote at
> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2005/May-07.html
> that the MIT/X11 license is the best, because its the least common
> denominator for all
> (btw: the last Java-articel by Micual is at
> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2006/May-19-2.html)
> 
> Or have GNU Classpath and Harmony different point of viewes how to
> implement something?

Sure.  Definitely.  We had a greenfield in which to implement our
modularity ideas.  So far, it's worked exceedingly well in terms of
developer productivity, and I'm excited to see what happens as people
wish to provide alternative implementations of the modules (such as a
security module that uses some kind of hardware accelerator...)

> 
> Or could it be possible, that GNU Classpath developer could also publish
> its code under the ASL2 ?

Of course they can.  (It's AL2, btw... there is no word "Software" in
"Apache License")

> Or that Harmony developer could also publish its code under the GNU
> Classpath-license?

Any contributor to Harmony, be it an individual or a corporation, is
free to license their work under as many licenses as they wish, as long
as it's not a derivative of someone elses work....

> So, that not all the work is duplicated done.
> 
> I also thought about Harmony and GNU Classpath on the GNU Classpath
> mailinglist at
> http://developer.classpath.org/pipermail/classpath/2006-June/000956.html
> and the only answer is
> http://developer.classpath.org/pipermail/classpath/2006-June/000965.html
> 
> 
> As I have said before: For me it looks, that two projects doing the same
> thing with the same goal, but without interaction to each other.

We certainly could and should talk more.

geir

> 
> 
> Greatings
> theuserbl
> 
> 
> 
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