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From Endre StĂžlsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>
Subject Re: So today Sun announced...
Date Fri, 19 May 2006 14:14:16 GMT

| 
| I'm not sure how to answer this.  I believe you are a little confused about
| how the JCP works and what we're doing here, and people are asking for.
| 
| First, we aren't advocating changes in the way Java SE specification is
| defined.

So you still want the JCP? Run by Sun? Or by who?

| 
| Second, the Java SE specification - the 'standard' you refer to - is already
| defined by multiple companies and individuals that work on the Java SE
| specification Expert Group, of which Sun is the Spec Lead.

Hm.. I haven't quite come to see it that way: If you read some of the 
blogs and whatnots on the Mustang pages: "Today I added this method, oh 
yes!" and "Well, we whipped up this thing five minutes ago!". I don't 
think a new method in java.lang.String is discussed back and forth in the 
JCP before some Sun guy just makes it.
  But I might just be mistaken.

| 
| That's an orthogonal issue, independent of implementation of specifications.

I don't think so, and I guess that's where I feel something is lacking in 
many comments I read around in the java communities: "oh my god, like, 
open source java NOW, dummies!", while not thinking about the processes 
behind the different scenes.

| 
| In fact, it's clear to me that OSS in Java EE has had a very positive effect
| on both evolving the spec for users (i.e. the Spring and Hibernate influence
| on Java EE/EJB3) as well as making the technology available to end-users at a
| faster pace.

I didn't know that there was that big a difference between EE and SE 
regarding licensing / open source, so obviously I have missed out on some 
points here.. Do you have any good links laying around?

| 
| What's the "Swing issue"?

The "missing TCK trick":
  http://danesecooper.blogs.com/divablog/2006/05/what_sun_doesnt.html

I read that in this thread, and have heard it mentioned before: The GUI 
parts of "java standards" are a somewhat convoluted area.

| 
| > 
| > PS: How do you folks feel about Tiger's development model?
| 
| Do you mean Mustang via "Project Peabody"? 

*blush*, obviously!

| I like the community aspect - it was a great step forward for Sun - and 
| could be improved by adding committers from other companies and making 
| the code available under an open source license.

Yes, that's what I think too - I really don't see the big difference 
between that and e.g. Tomcat. Go suggest some feature or submit some code 
to Tomcat - and be sure that not everything is immediately accepted into 
the codebase. The only difference is basically that you cannot fork the 
Sun JDK. (And that Sun just suddenly may change their mind in the future - 
but so can a open source project, in particular the new "try before you 
buy"-style uses of the GPL, where the copyright for all code is retained 
by one particular company.).

But this is also the place where I find the comments about "today I rammed 
in this new little method - whaddayouthink?". Proving, to me at least, 
that Sun's developers have direct access to the CVS, while the rest of the 
world doesn't. Which I don't find that bad, as long as they pour lots of 
money over the process, w/o asking for much back!

It could obviously still be improved - I guess they should listen a little 
more, be more accepting, whatever - get "a real community" going. But 
that's so much hassle! ;)

| 
| > 
| > PPS: Why does Sun really bother to pour money into Java at all? The reason,
| > I've come to understand, _was_ that they then could sell a bunch of their
| > big-iron boxes to companies when the small intel-servers couldn't cope with
| > a success of their developed java code. That argument is gone some years ago
| > - so what's really in it for Sun, other than prestige?
| 
| To be frank, IMO it's leverage over a major control point in the software
| industry, which doesn't need to change if they OSS their implementation.

Yes, and they made this rather wonderful thing. Don't they deserve _some_ 
particular _influence_ over it still? Really, I'm kinda sad that Sun 
doesn't earn plenty-o-cash, given what they've given to the OSS scene and 
the brave thing they did when CPU's still were named with numbers, and the 
gigahertz could be counted on your digits: a new, friendly OO language, 
Java, on a radically new platform-independent platform (!), the JVM. And 
they've even tried to put some barriers in the road for total MS 
domination - which apparently have backfired or not worked out very well..

But, open source the _implementation_, and keep the JCP as it is, with Sun 
having a special position?

Regards,
Endre.

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