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From Geir Magnusson Jr <g...@pobox.com>
Subject Re: [classlib] Testing
Date Thu, 27 Apr 2006 01:02:43 GMT

George Harley wrote:
> Mikhail Loenko wrote:
>> Hello
>> I'd like to bring this thread back.
>> Number of tests is growing and it is time to put them in order.
>> So far we may have:
>> 1) implementation-specific tests that designed to be run from 
>> bootclasspath
>> 2) implementation-specific tests that might be run from classpath
>> 3) implementation-specific tests that designed to be run from classpath
>> 4) implementation-independent tests that designed to be run from 
>> bootclasspath
>> 5) implementation-independent tests that might be run from classpath
>> 6) implementation-independent tests that designed to be run from 
>> classpath
>> Also we seem to have the following packages, where the tests are:
>> 1) the same package as implementation
>> 2) org.apache.harmony.tests.[the same package as implementation]
>> 3) tests.api.[the same package as implementation]
>> I suggest that we work out step-by-step solution as we could not reach
>> an agreement for the general universal one
>> So for the first step I suggest that we separate i-independent tests
>> that must or may be run from classpath
>> I suggest that we put them into package
>> tests.module.compatible.[package of implementation being tested]
>> Comments?
>> Thanks,
>> Mikhail
> Hi Mikhail,
> I've just started working through the modules to merge test packages 
> "tests.api.[same package as implementation]" and "tests.api.[same 
> package as implementation]" into one package space. Using the class 
> library package naming guidelines from off the web site [1], all of the 
> tests for the text module have been consolidated under 
> org.apache.harmony.text.tests.[package under test].

Are these API spec tests or implementation tests?  If the former, +1. 
if the latter, lets talk about it.

> Of course, the text module has only "implementation-independent tests 
> that designed to be run from classpath". For modules that have got 
> implementation-specific tests then I suppose we could use something like 
> "org.apache.harmony.[module].tests.impl.[package under test]" or 
> "org.apache.harmony.[module].tests.internal.[package under test]" etc. 
> I've got no preference.


Put them in the same package as the class being tested, please, if there 
is no problem being run that way.


> Best regards,
> George
> [1] 
> http://incubator.apache.org/harmony/subcomponents/classlibrary/pkgnaming.html 
>> 2006/3/24, George Harley <george.c.harley@googlemail.com>:
>>> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>>> Leo Simons wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 08:02:44AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>>>>> Leo Simons wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 07:15:28AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>>>>>>> Pulling out of the various threads where we have been discussing,
>>>>>>>> can we agree on the problem :
>>>>>>>> We have unique problems compared to other Java projects because
>>>>>>>> need to find a way to reliably test the things that are commonly
>>>>>>>> expected to be a solid point of reference - namely the core
>>>>>>>> library.
>>>>>>>> Further, we've been implicitly doing "integration testing"
>>>>>>>> - so far - the only way we've been testing our code has been
>>>>>>>> situ' in the VM - not in an isolated test harness.  To me,
>>>>>>>> turns it into an integration test.
>>>>>>>> Sure, we're using JUnit, but because of the fact we are
>>>>>>>> implmenting core java.* APIs, we aren't testing with a framework
>>>>>>>> that has been independently tested for correctness, like
we would
>>>>>>>> when testing any other code.
>>>>>>>> I hope I got that idea across - I believe that we have to
>>>>>>>> beyond normal testing approaches because we don't have a
>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>> Where we define 'normal situation' as "running a test framework
>>>>>>> top of
>>>>>>> the sun jdk and expecting any bugs to not be in that jdk". There's
>>>>>>> plenty
>>>>>>> of projects out there that have to test things without having
such a
>>>>>>> "stable reference JDK" luxury.....I imagine that testing GCC
>>>>>>> just as
>>>>>>> hard as this problem we have here :-)
>>>>>> Is it the same?  We need to have a running JVM+classlibarary to test
>>>>>> the classlibrary code.
>>>>> Well you need a working C compiler and standard C library to 
>>>>> compile the
>>>>> compiler so you can compile make so you can build bash so you can run
>>>>> perl (which uses the standard C library functions all over the 
>>>>> place of
>>>>> course) so you can run the standard C library tests so that you know
>>>>> that
>>>>> the library you used when compiling the compiler were correct so 
>>>>> you can
>>>>> run the compiler tests. I don't think they actually do things that
>>>>> way, but
>>>>> it seems like basically the same problem. Having a virtual machine 
>>>>> just
>>>>> makes it easier since you still assume "the native world" as a 
>>>>> baseline,
>>>>> which is a lot more than "the hardware".
>>>> There's a difference.  You can use a completely separate toolchain to
>>>> build, test and verify the output of the C compiler.
>>>> In our case, we are using the thing we are testing to test itself.
>>>> There is no "known good" element possible right now.
>>>> We use the classlibrary we are trying to test to execute the test
>>>> framework that tests the classlibrary that is running it.
>>>> The tool is testing itself.
>>>>>>>> So I think there are three things we want to do (adopting
>>>>>>>> terminology that came from the discussion with Tim and Leo
) :
>>>>>>>> 1) implementation tests
>>>>>>>> 2) spec/API tests (I'll bundle together)
>>>>>>>> 3) integration/functional tests
>>>>>>>> I believe that for #1, the issues related to being on the
>>>>>>>> bootclasspath don't matter, because we aren't testing that
>>>>>>>> of the classes (which is how they behave integrated w/ the
VM and
>>>>>>>> security system) but rather the basic internal functioning.
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure how to approach this, but I'll try.  I'd love
to hear
>>>>>>>> how Sun, IBM or BEA deals with this, or be told why it isn't
>>>>>>>> issue :)
>>>>>>>> Implementation tests : I'd like to see us be able to do #1
via the
>>>>>>>> standard same-package technique (i.e. testing a.b.C w/ a.b.CTest)
>>>>>>>> but we'll run into a tangle of classloader problems, I suspect,
>>>>>>>> becuase we want to be testing java.* code in a system that
>>>>>>>> has java.* code. Can anyone see a way we can do this - test
>>>>>>>> classlibrary from the integration point of view - using some
>>>>>>>> harness + any known-good JRE, like Sun's or IBM's?
>>>>>>> Ew, that won't work in the end since we should assume our own
>>>>>>> is going
>>>>>>> to be "known-better" :-). But it might be a nice way to "bootstrap"
>>>>>>> (eg
>>>>>>> we test with an external JRE until we satisfy the tests and then
>>>>>>> switch
>>>>>>> to testing with an earlier build).
>>>>>> Lets be clear - even using our own "earlier build" doesn't solve
>>>>>> problem I'm describing, because as it stands now, we don't use
>>>>>> "earlier build" classes to test with - we use the code we want to
>>>>>> test as the clsaslibrary for the JRE that's running the test 
>>>>>> framework.
>>>>>> The classes that we are testing are also the classes used by the
>>>>>> testing framework.  IOW, any of the java.* classes that JUnit itself
>>>>>> needs (ex. java.util.HashMap) are exactly the same implementation
>>>>>> that it's testing.
>>>>>> That's why I think it's subtly different than a "bootstrap and use
>>>>>> version - 1 to test" problem.  See what I mean?
>>>>> Yeah yeah, I was already way beyond thinking "just" JUnit is usable
>>>>> for the
>>>>> kind of test you're describing. At some point, fundamentally, you
>>>>> either trust
>>>>> something external (whether its the sun jdk or the intel compiler
>>>>> designers,
>>>>> at some point you do draw a line) or you find a way to bootstrap.
>>>> Well, we do trust the Sun JDK.
>>>>>> I'm very open to the idea that I'm missing something here, but I'd
>>>>>> like to know that you see the issue - that when we test, we have
>>>>>>   VM + "classlib to be tested" + JUnit + testcases
>>>>>> where the testcases are testing the classlib the VM is running JUnit
>>>>>> with.
>>>>>> There never is isolation of the code being tested :
>>>>>>   VM + "known good classlib" + Junit + testcases
>>>>>> unless we have some framework where
>>>>>>   VM + "known good classlib" + JUnit
>>>>>>       + framework("classlib to be tested")
>>>>>>            + testcases
>>>>>> and it's that notion of "framework()" that I'm advocating we explore.
>>>>> I'm all for exploring it, I just fundamentally don't buy into the 
>>>>> "known
>>>>> good" bit. What happens when the 'classlib to be tested' is 'known
>>>>> better' than the 'known good' one? How do you define "known"? How 
>>>>> do you
>>>>> define "good"?
>>>> Known?  Passed some set of tests. So it could be the Sun JDK for the
>>>> VM + "known good" part.
>>>> I think you intuitively understand this.  When you find a bug in code
>>>> you are testing, you first assume it's your code, not the framework,
>>>> right?  In our case, our framework is actually the code we are
>>>> testing, so we have a bit of a logical conundrum.
>>> Hi Geir,
>>> The number of Harmony public API classes that get loaded just to run the
>>> JUnit harness is a little over 200. The majority of these are out of
>>> LUNI with a very low number coming from each of Security, NIO, Archive
>>> and Text.
>>> Sure there is a circular dependency between what we are building and the
>>> framework we are using to test it but it appears to touch on only a
>>> relatively small part of Harmony....IMHO.
>>> Best regards,
>>> George
>>>>>>> Further ideas...
>>>>>>> -> look at how the native world does testing
>>>>>>>   (hint: it usually has #ifdefs, uses perl along the way, and
it is
>>>>>>>   certainly
>>>>>>>    "messy")
>>>>>>>   -> emulate that
>>>>>>> -> build a bigger, better specification test
>>>>>>>   -> and somehow "prove" it is "good enough"
>>>>>>> -> build a bigger, better integration test
>>>>>>>   -> and somehow "prove" it is "good enough"
>>>>>>> I'll admit my primary interest is the last one...
>>>>>> The problem I see with the last one is that the "parameter space"
>>>>>> *huge*.
>>>>> Yeah, that's one of the things that makes it interesting. Fortunately
>>>>> open source does have many monkeys...
>>>>>> I believe that your preference for the last one comes from the
>>>>>> Monte-Carlo style approach that Gump uses - hope that your test
>>>>>> suite has enough variance that you "push" the thing being tested
>>>>>> through enough of the parameter space that you can be comfortable
>>>>>> you would have exposed the bugs.  Maybe.
>>>>> Ooh, now its becoming rather abstract...
>>>>> Well, perhaps, but more of the gump approache comes from the idea that
>>>>> the parameter space itself is also at some point defined in software,
>>>>> which may have bugs of its own. You circumvent that by making 
>>>>> humans the
>>>>> parameter space (don't start about how humans are buggy. We don't
>>>>> want to
>>>>> get into existialism or faith systems when talking about unit 
>>>>> testing do
>>>>> we?). The thing that gump enables is "many monkey QA" - a way for
>>>>> thousands
>>>>> of human beings to concurrently make shared assertions about software
>>>>> without actually needing all that much human interaction.
>>>>> More concretely, if harmony can run all known java software, and run
>>>>> it to
>>>>> the asserted satisfaction of all its developers, you can trust that
>>>>> you have
>>>>> covered all the /relevant/ parts of the parameter space you describe.
>>>> Yes.  And when you can run all knownn Java software, let me know :)
>>>> That's my point about the parameter space being huge.  Even when you
>>>> reduce the definition to "that of all known Java software", you still
>>>> have a huge problem on your hands.
>>>>> You
>>>>> will never get that level of trust when the assertions are made by
>>>>> software
>>>>> rather than humans. This is how open source leads to software quality.
>>>>> Quoting myself, 'gump is the most misunderstood piece of software,
>>>>> ever'.
>>>>> cheers,
>>>>> Leo
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