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From Geir Magnusson Jr <g...@pobox.com>
Subject Re: [result] Re: [vote] Acceptance of HARMONY-39 : Contribution of beans, regex and math class library code
Date Wed, 22 Mar 2006 03:48:11 GMT

Dalibor Topic wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 02:48:25PM -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote:
>> On 3/21/06, Dalibor Topic <robilad@kaffe.org> wrote:
>>> Java is so depressingly backwards. We're solving problems over and
>>> over again that would not be problems in the first place if Java was
>>> managed competently, by people who have a clue about involving
>>> communities, and placed the platform before their business interests.
>>> cheers,
>>> dalibor topic
>> Can you please stop with the Sun bashing?. Sun has specifically allowed you
>> among others to create a cleanroom implementation of their JVM. In fact they
>> did change the legalese allowing that to happen.
> That's a slightly uninformed assertion. 
> Sun changed their legalese to make it possible to certify
> a cleanroom implementation of J2SE as compatible, a little while ago. 

Well, because Apache primarily (and others) pushed to have the JCP changed.

> Implementing the specs by writing open source VMs has been done since
> 1996, and needed no specific blessing.

That's debatable.  Of course, Sun had some strange, untested-in-court 
ideas about how to protect the specs, but still - there's room for 
debate here.

> Certification of compatibility is not the same thing as the right to
> implement. The former is something Sun can grant, the latter is not for Sun 
> to decide.

Again, room for debate...

>> If you dislike Java so much, you're free to go to the Mono camp and start
>> chasing the MSFT train....
> No, I like Java, so I won't be switching camps. It is possible
> to be disappointed with Sun's management of the platform without disliking the
> language. I dare say that there would be no business interest for
> companies to get involed with projects like this one if everything was
> peachy, and if Java wouldn't dearly need better leadership.
>> Thanks to the Sun "business interests", Microsoft wasn't succesfull in
>> "derailing" java and polluting it with Win32 api calls and all that crap,
>> like they originally intended to do with J++....
> I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but J# (what J++ is called now),
> still exists. With Sun's blessing, since the Microsoft settlement. It
> also includes all that Win32 specific mess. You can download your 'free'
> copy of Visual Studio Express 2005 for J# from Microsoft.
> cheers,
> dalibor topic
>> FC

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