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From Dalibor Topic <robi...@kaffe.org>
Subject Re: Back on your hands! (Was Re: ASF has been shipping GPL exception stuff for years and still is ;))
Date Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:32:43 GMT
On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Ok.  So there's this joke I like...
> A guy dies and goes to hell.  A daemon ;) meets him at the door, and  
> tells him that he gets to choose his eternal punishment.  They go to  
> a large room where people are hanging by their hands into a pool of  
> lava.  They all are in agony and pain.  They guys says "Pass!".  The  
> go to the second room.  Here, people are chained to big rocks, and  
> wave after wave of cold saltwater lash into them minute after  
> minute.  Clearly they are suffering too.
> The man wants to see the third room.  In it, people are standing up  
> to their necks in a big pool of manure, drinking coffee.  The man  
> thinks "hey, that's not so bad, compared to what I saw" so he grabs a  
> coffee cup, jumps in and has his coffee. (The coffee isn't bad, either.)
> Fifteen minutes later, the overseer gets up from his coffee, comes to  
> the edge of the pool, and says
> "Ok everyone.  Coffee break is over.  Back on your hands!"

+1 ;)

> So...  can we consider this topic done (with the exception of dalibar  
> getting the last word in response to my last post), at least from the  
> POV of trying to make progress on it here on the Harmony list, and  
> move it over to legal-discuss?  This is a committer-only list, so not  
> everyone can participate, but if we promise to bring the results  
> back, will that work?

Nah, not necessary. I don't think anymore it would get us what we need,
so no need to create confusion amongst ourselves. 

> If not, shall we start harmony-legal@ list?

I doubt it is very necessary either, as the issue is not a legal one. In 
essence, people from outside the ASF may ocassionally come with ideas how to 
"subvert the system", and those ideas may even look nice, in theory, but they 
will not work in the practice, since the core membership is very
conservative, and will need time to find out how it can best profit
from which forms of interaction with other communities. From my
experience so far, pushing the membership via social hacks seems to be
counterproductive. Thanks to those who participated in those social
experiments. I hope I haven't annoyed people too much with that.

At the end of the day, the current situation is not really a problem,
for a variety of reasons.

A "100% ASLv2 only" Apache Harmony project is able to differentiate itself 
towards potential, *PL(+*)-wary donors as a nice, potentially more proprietary 
vendor friendly alternative, and so far this has been very successful, and 
that was one of the things I envisioned for this project, allowing proprietary 
runtime vendors to go the safe route via ASF.

As long as there are contributors we can lure out of the reserve, into 
contributing their crown jewels, by using a "100% ASLv2 pure" goal, I think 
it will be worth it. It would be great if Apache Harmony succeeds in creating a
modular, pluggable runtime, within the next 3-5 years, which may happen with the 
participation of some of the proprietary runtime vendors, and their
research teams.

One thing I keep ocassionally forgetting in my attempts to find hacks to merge all
communities together, is that a multi-pronged approach is going to be more
successfull in appealing to different "segments of the market", and
merging things too early would eliminate the advantage of being able to
appeal to initially different audiences.

dalibor topic

> geir
> On Dec 5, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
> >On Sun, Dec 04, 2005 at 01:52:32PM -0600, Archie Cobbs wrote:
> >>Conclusion being: if it's the merely legality that concerns ASF,
> >>then they should already be happy and this whole problem and
> >>discussion can go away (wouldn't that be nice :-)
> >
> >Yes, that'd be real nice! But mere legality isn't the only thing
> >that concerns the ASF. Its probably also perfectly legal to write
> >code that only compiles with MS Visual Studio .Net 2008 Vista
> >Edition and release it under the Apache License. However, if an
> >ASF project were to do that, it'd still be considered a problem.
> >
> >"So what are all the other concerns?"
> >
> >There is no exhaustive list. Cliff is working on documenting this
> >stuff.
> >
> >Things like "users can go and use our stuff without worrying about
> >'virality'", "the legal end results are similar to what our users
> >expect", and more.
> >
> >- Leo
> >
> -- 
> Geir Magnusson Jr                                  +1-203-665-6437
> geirm@apache.org

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