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From Dalibor Topic <robi...@kaffe.org>
Subject Re: [legal] Proposed changes for the Bulk Contributor Questionnaire
Date Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:28:31 GMT
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> 
> On Nov 14, 2005, at 3:18 PM, Dalibor Topic wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2005 at 09:57:48AM -0500, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>
>>> Leo Simons wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rant below. Decided not to tone it down.
>>>
>>>
>>> Leo++
>>>
>>
>> +1 from me, too. sounds like an excellent way to shoot oneself to
>> slashdot with headlines like "Apache foundation rejects code from IBM,
>> claims it was stolen from FSF!". Political suicide, should it ever
>> happen, as it'd force the ASF to play arbiter in disputes that don't
>> exist.
> 
> 
> I don't understand this.  I'm suggesting we use a tool internally to 
> help us *find* problems, both at contribution time as well as ongoing 
> to ensure that inappropriate 3rd party code doesn't come in during  the
> regular flow of activity.  We'd then examine any issues raised,  and
> make a judgement based on that.

OK. I'm uncomfortable delegating such a potentially sensitive issue to a
proprietary black box, as in the worst case that leaves us with little
chance to explore why the black box oracle came up with a wrong or right
analysis.

Checking code pedigree makes sense. It just needs to be transparent.

> Suppose a contribution had code from the FSF. (IBMs doesn't.   Period) 

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply it had, just as an ugly worst case
scenario. I can come up with an even worse one, actually, in which a
hypothetical IBM contribution had traces of Microsoft's VM code.
Microsoft should be scarier than the FSF to most people on this list, I
guess, as the FSF has an interest in working together with us, whereas
Microsoft's interests probably aren't aligned with open source J2SE.

> Would you prefer that we don't find it until much later,  like after a
> release?  Or if we do find it, just accept it to avoid  having to commit
> "political suicide" by pointing it out to the  contributor?

It'd be fine as long as nothing bad is found, or the cases flagged by
the black box oracle are actual issues. I'm trying to view it from a
worst-case perspective.

The trouble would start if we end up having a false positive.

How do we figure out that we have a false positive, without either
access to say, the database, the source code of the oracle, the complete
legal history of some bit of proprietary code including the merges,
transactions, copyright transfers and relicensing operations, etc?

Such a 'discovery' process could take quite a bit of time, provided all
parties involved (including the makers of the black box oracle) would
have any business interest in participating (in absence of an actual
legal case). If, say, Microsoft takes their time to talk to Apache about
the legal history of Microsoft's VM, (what'd be in it for Microsoft,
after all? :) where does it leave a contribution that'd be flagged as
potentially infringing on Microsoft's code?

I'd guesstimate a resolution could take a few years, as a worst case. Is
any contribution that stays in limbo for a few years going to be
relevant after a claim is showed to be false after a few years?

That's where the 'political suicide' scenario I mentioned comes in, as
it could force us to act as an arbiter in determining how trustworthy
either IBM, Black Duck or Microsoft are, based on little more than a
black box. Not a position I'd like to find myself in, in particular if
it all turns out to be just a software glitch.[1] :)

> If we find code stolen from *any* copyright holder, we will  definitely
> reject the code.   

+1

> Because there is a complete  implementation under a
> non-opensource license that has been very,  very widely distributed, it
> behooves us to take what steps we can to  ensure that we don't
> accidentally incorporate it into our codebase.

+1, too.

We just need to make sure that the steps we take are equally transparent
to everyone involved (and the outsiders), as the rest of the process is,
in my opinion. A black box oracle doesn't have its place in such a process.

cheers,
dalibor topic

[1] Yeah, I know, I'm assuming that the Black Duck software is not
perfect and error free without having ever seen it. It's a worst case
scenario, though, so I am taking some freedoms with things that can go
wrong. :)

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