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Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:58:32 +0100
From: Gerry Steele <gerry.steele@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Gerry Steele <gerry.steele@gmail.com>
To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Backward compatibility
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Hi

I actually did seem a bit cynical there.

I forgot to mention that if there is anything I can do to help let me know=
=20
or perhaps I'll keep an eye on the lists. I've experience with the JCK &=20
other tests so I could be useful in the QA area considering it's quite an=
=20
esoteric task. I do believe that variety and competition is good in softwar=
e=20
for everyone. Though I do feel a bit sorry for sun.. they put up the money=
=20
to develop and create the Java world we have now and everyone seems to want=
=20
it for their own. And they don't exactly ask for a lot from users..... just=
=20
remember that the nearest competitor costs a small fortune.

Another sidenote is Project Peabody. All those bugs in Mustang that have=20
been bothering you are now open to anyone to submit fixes.=20
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2SE/peabody/

And you get a free t-shirt when you contribute!

Gerry

On 5/12/05, FaeLLe <mrbillcollector@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Very intresting and well noted writeup sir an insight from a Sun employee=
=20
> is always a bonus.
>=20
> I will for sure followup comments on this article and see what the=20
> community has to say on this post.
>=20
> On 5/11/05, Gerry Steele < gerry.steele@gmail.com> wrote:
> >=20
> > I'm a big fan of the Apache foundation but this is one product I'm not=
=20
> > too=20
> > sure is such a good idea as of yet for reasons several:
> >=20
> > >> Deprecated or non deprecated, we want Harmony to pass the TCK, so
> > > >> whatever the TCK wants us to do, we'll do it.
> >=20
> > I hope you understand what sticking to the TCK entails. When it comes t=
o=20
> >=20
> > implementing GUI stuff for instance, your platform will have to fully=
=20
> > copy
> > the official JVM's Swing/AWT widgets and all other details in order for=
=20
> > the
> > automation and robot driven tests to pass. The JCK testbase for tiger i=
s=20
> >=20
> > immense. To get it setup and run is a skill on its own. To get it to=20
> > pass
> > all tests takes a serious am mount of tweaking and a noteable knowledge=
=20
> > of
> > the javatest harness. It will require implementations on things as=20
> > extensive=20
> > as CORBA and RMI. We would need passive agents, tname servers etc.
> >=20
> > Also, when running the TCK bear in mind that you'll have to run the=20
> > harness
> > with the Sun VM.
> >=20
> > I'm not sure about the particular extent of the testsuite provided with=
=20
> > the=20
> > TCK you guys are talking about (if there is interest can find out more)=
,=20
> > but
> > the JCK, which is basically a TCK for the entire J2SE jre and jdk will=
=20
> > be
> > going on impossible to pass for an alternative implmentation as=20
> > everything=20
> > is written with the Sun JDK/JRE in mind and test cases are adapted in=
=20
> > ways
> > that will create an infinite unpredictable series of problems when=20
> > trying to
> > adapt your code.
> >=20
> > Another reason is that I'm not quite sure I see the point. It will take=
=20
> > 4-5=20
> > years or more to even come close to a product like tiger. Sun are=20
> > already
> > working heavily on mustang and dolphin (to a lesser degree on the=20
> > latter).
> > As well as this, sun research have many projects looking at the future=
=20
> > of=20
> > the Java VM such as the Barcelona project which will drastically change=
=20
> > the
> > implementation of the JVM. For instance to make it more network=20
> > orientated
> > or to improve resource sharing.
> >=20
> > The latter things (which are yet to see real sun implementation) might=
=20
> > be=20
> > something you guys might then want to take advantage of in order to=20
> > leverage
> > a selling point of Harmony. Without something like that it's just=20
> > another
> > attempt at a VM that will be playing catch-up forever.
> >=20
> > Also, don't forget about quality. Sun put a serious amount of money and
> > manpower into ensuring the quality and compatibility of the JVM. A lot=
=20
> > of
> > corporations depend on this. They have a regular update release cycle.=
=20
> > For=20
> > instance we are currently working on 1.3.1_16, 1.4.2_09, 5.0_04 & 5.0_0=
5
> > .
> >=20
> > In a project of this size some of the the test suites take several days=
=20
> > to
> > run. Some take many many hours of man power. For excessive thoroughness=
=20
> > there also manual JCK and regression test suites. Which, trust me, will=
=20
> > not
> > be performed by someone who isn't being paid for it. Things like this=
=20
> > don't
> > fit well with the community model.
> >=20
> > Another worry I have is that the effort here might be better redirect t=
o=20
> >=20
> > some other project. We already have Java. Even if harmony does make it=
=20
> > to a
> > useable release people will still prefer to use the Sun VM. It will be=
=20
> > the
> > platform people build on and it will be the one they trust.
> >=20
> > I'll be very interested in how this turns out.
> >=20
> > Regards,
> > Gerry
> >=20
> > 1) speed
> > >
> > > 2) portability (java is claimed to run 'everywhere', but in fact, it
> > > runs only on a few operating systems, even fewer for 1.5)
> > >
> > > 3) configurability (I might want to tune it differently and, for
> > > example, choose different thread/GC models)
> > >
> > > 4) implementation stategy (in macosx, multiple JVMs share 80% of thei=
r=20
> >=20
> > > memory, and some of Swing is native, therefore feels like the rest of
> > > the OS and it's hardware accelerated)
> > >
> > > 5) internal modularity (we want diversity of implementation to drive
> > > innovation in the VM space, both in and out companies and=20
> > universities)=20
> > >
> > > And, last but not least, if Sun or other vendors that already have JV=
M
> > > want to stop paying for all that development on their and want to=20
> > start
> > > sharing the development costs with the java ecosystem in general and=
=20
> > > with a clear warranty that we will not try to pollute the stream we=
=20
> > all
> > > drink from, therefore want to contribute some of their code to=20
> > Harmony,
> > > we will welcome them with open arms.
> > >
> > > --=20
> > > Stefano.
> > >
> > >
> >=20
> > --
> > Gerry Steele
> >=20
> > x74521/+353-1-8199 521
> > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/gerrys
> > [ gerry.steele@sun.com OR gerry.steele@gmail.com]
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> www.FaeLLe.com <http://www.FaeLLe.com>=20


--=20
Gerry Steele

x74521/+353-1-8199 521
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/gerrys
[gerry.steele@sun.com OR gerry.steele@gmail.com]

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