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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [arch] VM Candidate : JikesRVM http://jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/
Date Tue, 24 May 2005 02:25:41 GMT

On May 23, 2005, at 9:48 PM, Rodrigo Kumpera wrote:

> A good way to define milestones that are perceptible by the general  
> public
> are FOSS that runs fine on Harmony. Something like a Geronimo or  
> Eclipse
> milestones.

heh - what would say those are?

>  It's a way to deliver something that is valuable before the JCK  
> compliant
> product ships,which will take a couple of years.
>  Rodrigo
>
>  On 5/23/05, Renaud BECHADE <renaud.bechade@numerix.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> >It would be great if people would bundle Harmony with stuff (and  
>> plan
>> >to do it w/ Geronimo when that time comes), bit it's way out of  
>> scope
>> >for *this* project to get into the business of reditributing  
>> software
>> >from outside of the ASF.
>>
>> Hum... I still think there is a minimum distribution effort to be  
>> done
>> (call
>> that marketing if you want) to get people to actually test the VM,  
>> as in
>> the
>> beginning it might be very, very, very unlikely that absolutely  
>> everything
>> runs out of the box as replacement for J2SE 5 or 6... So we will  
>> need to
>> help them try it out.
>> (Basically, to me some nice IDE + app-server + a few dummy  
>> examples, swing
>> &
>> jsf for instance, is the bare minimum to provide as a
>> demo-micro-distribution-to-test-it-in-reasonable-situations; the  
>> IDE only
>> might be non-ASF, as I don't think there is a widely accepted ASF-IDE
>> [well, yes: Eclipse plugins for Tapestry & co. :-); please accept my
>> apologies if there is one, my point is not selling Eclipse in  
>> particular
>> but
>> having an IDE to play with the VM, for instance to test  
>> practically its
>> debugging interface, and show it to others])
>>
>> Just think of it in OS terms as a
>> micro-bootable-live-CD-to-demo-it-actually-works-on-useful-cases  
>> (a stuff
>> for decision makers). Bundling with 1 or 2 apps we/the ASF did not  
>> write
>> is
>> not to be covered by NIH syndrome in my opinion, but rather a way  
>> to prove
>> it actually works to decision makers. (After all, mono bundles  
>> mono with
>> monodevelop [or rather monodevelop with mono, I think], and Sun  
>> bundles
>> Netbeans with J2SE...)
>>
>> Just the same as if you develop, say, a 'new simulation algorithm for
>> reaction-diffusion discrete systems, which is "discrete, adaptive"  
>> '[1].
>> In
>> order to get credit from ordinary people (who might not be  
>> familiar with
>> its
>> technical beauty, right?), even if the scope of this project is on  
>> soft
>> architecture and math analysis, you might have to provide  
>> scientifically
>> uninteresting display that it works... (Spiraling pattern for  
>> simplified
>> models of myocardium cells electrophysiology: that is, simulation of
>> cardiac
>> arrhythmia in dummy demo-only situation, so here the mystery of  
>> what it is
>> ends here [2])
>> That is, with some 'out of scope' effort you get images for the  
>> layman to
>> be
>> impressed...
>>
>> To come back to more soft-only concerns, IMHO providing  
>> distributors with
>> the minimum tool they need to polish the VM-to-VM discrepancies and
>> external
>> developers the minimum tools they need to test their soft on the  
>> Harmony
>> VM
>> (and get a chance to actually do something - not just: 'it does  
>> not work'
>> -
>> if it does not work the way they planned it) might be a big ROI,
>> comparatively small effort.
>>
>> A VM without the bare minimum support tools might appear a bit  
>> useless to
>> many people (and also impractical to test with an ergonomic, long- 
>> lasting
>> experience of beautiful-looking piece of software). If you take,  
>> say, the
>> FreeBSD case, you don't have much choice for instance for the VM  
>> you use
>> with your favorite IDE, so that ipso facto you stick with the VM  
>> you get
>> in
>> stock (because the other VMs might be good, but if it's a  
>> nightmare to
>> reconfigure it all to use your VM of choice with your favorite  
>> IDE...),
>> just
>> like IE sticks with many win$ users.
>>
>> As a use case, if I want to test a piece of software, well I would  
>> like it
>> to be kind of "download it and play".
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> RB
>>
>> [1] Sorry I take examples of my own... (Well, the research I once  
>> did)
>> [2] It was so simplified it was meaningless in my opinion, but I  
>> got my
>> credits with it...
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:geirm@apache.org]
>> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 8:58 PM
>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [arch] VM Candidate : JikesRVM
>> http://jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/
>>
>>
>> On May 22, 2005, at 9:27 PM, Renaud BECHADE wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > No. Why would we do this?
>>> People tend to be lazy. If they have a bundle with one VM, then
>>> they will
>>> use that VM, for most of them, IMHO. I seriously doubt we can have
>>> people
>>> trust an alternative VM if it is not a piece of cake (sort of "with
>>> a one
>>> liner on the console you are started") to develop with it, and as
>>> it is
>>> unlikely it will support everything perfectly at the beginning (to
>>> convince
>>> you let us consider running .NET soft on a Linux/Mono machine, or
>>> XSP code
>>> on a FreeBSD/mono machine - sometimes it crashes badly, or again
>>> freeware
>>> support of Flash swf, all of which can have slightly strange  
>>> behaviors
>>> sometimes, if compared with commercial equivalents, so that a
>>> development
>>> that is not started /from the beginning/ with them might get into
>>> troubles)
>>> there will be some intensive testing to do on real applications,
>>> which might
>>> involve some patches on "must-have" packages such as Eclipse / J2EE
>>> etc.
>>> (including strategies as simple as repackaging with a bit less
>>> modules to
>>> have it actually run because some funny class is not here)
>>>
>>
>>
>> It would be great if people would bundle Harmony with stuff (and plan
>> to do it w/ Geronimo when that time comes), bit it's way out of scope
>> for *this* project to get into the business of reditributing software
>> from outside of the ASF.
>>
>> geir
>>
>>
>>>
>>> RB
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:geirm@apache.org]
>>> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 7:38 PM
>>> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [arch] VM Candidate : JikesRVM http://
>>> jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/ <http://jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 19, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Renaud BECHADE wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Another point that is unrelated, but what about the "packaging" of
>>>> the VM?
>>>> Do we plan to release it with say Eclipse + Server (JSF + IDE +
>>>> object DB or
>>>> O/R mapping + HSQL DB)? (IMHO this is good way to legitimate it)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> No. Why would we do this?
>>>
>>> We want our JRE or JDK to be an alternative to the existing JREs and
>>> JDKs w/o having people worry about all the cruft.
>>>
>>> If you had an interest in bundling for some reason, you could of
>>> course take the thing and do that elsewhere (or start a separate
>>> project here if there was enough support and a decent rationale...)
>>>
>>> geir
>>>
>>> --
>>> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
>>> geirm@apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
>> geirm@apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr                                  +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org



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