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From Rodrigo Kumpera <kump...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [arch] VM Candidate : JikesRVM http://jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/
Date Tue, 24 May 2005 01:48:58 GMT
A good way to define milestones that are perceptible by the general public 
are FOSS that runs fine on Harmony. Something like a Geronimo or Eclipse 
milestones.
 It's a way to deliver something that is valuable before the JCK compliant 
product ships,which will take a couple of years.
 Rodrigo

 On 5/23/05, Renaud BECHADE <renaud.bechade@numerix.com> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> >It would be great if people would bundle Harmony with stuff (and plan
> >to do it w/ Geronimo when that time comes), bit it's way out of scope
> >for *this* project to get into the business of reditributing software
> >from outside of the ASF.
> 
> Hum... I still think there is a minimum distribution effort to be done 
> (call
> that marketing if you want) to get people to actually test the VM, as in 
> the
> beginning it might be very, very, very unlikely that absolutely everything
> runs out of the box as replacement for J2SE 5 or 6... So we will need to
> help them try it out.
> (Basically, to me some nice IDE + app-server + a few dummy examples, swing 
> &
> jsf for instance, is the bare minimum to provide as a
> demo-micro-distribution-to-test-it-in-reasonable-situations; the IDE only
> might be non-ASF, as I don't think there is a widely accepted ASF-IDE
> [well, yes: Eclipse plugins for Tapestry & co. :-); please accept my
> apologies if there is one, my point is not selling Eclipse in particular 
> but
> having an IDE to play with the VM, for instance to test practically its
> debugging interface, and show it to others])
> 
> Just think of it in OS terms as a
> micro-bootable-live-CD-to-demo-it-actually-works-on-useful-cases (a stuff
> for decision makers). Bundling with 1 or 2 apps we/the ASF did not write 
> is
> not to be covered by NIH syndrome in my opinion, but rather a way to prove
> it actually works to decision makers. (After all, mono bundles mono with
> monodevelop [or rather monodevelop with mono, I think], and Sun bundles
> Netbeans with J2SE...)
> 
> Just the same as if you develop, say, a 'new simulation algorithm for
> reaction-diffusion discrete systems, which is "discrete, adaptive" '[1]. 
> In
> order to get credit from ordinary people (who might not be familiar with 
> its
> technical beauty, right?), even if the scope of this project is on soft
> architecture and math analysis, you might have to provide scientifically
> uninteresting display that it works... (Spiraling pattern for simplified
> models of myocardium cells electrophysiology: that is, simulation of 
> cardiac
> arrhythmia in dummy demo-only situation, so here the mystery of what it is
> ends here [2])
> That is, with some 'out of scope' effort you get images for the layman to 
> be
> impressed...
> 
> To come back to more soft-only concerns, IMHO providing distributors with
> the minimum tool they need to polish the VM-to-VM discrepancies and 
> external
> developers the minimum tools they need to test their soft on the Harmony 
> VM
> (and get a chance to actually do something - not just: 'it does not work' 
> -
> if it does not work the way they planned it) might be a big ROI,
> comparatively small effort.
> 
> A VM without the bare minimum support tools might appear a bit useless to
> many people (and also impractical to test with an ergonomic, long-lasting
> experience of beautiful-looking piece of software). If you take, say, the
> FreeBSD case, you don't have much choice for instance for the VM you use
> with your favorite IDE, so that ipso facto you stick with the VM you get 
> in
> stock (because the other VMs might be good, but if it's a nightmare to
> reconfigure it all to use your VM of choice with your favorite IDE...), 
> just
> like IE sticks with many win$ users.
> 
> As a use case, if I want to test a piece of software, well I would like it
> to be kind of "download it and play".
> 
> Regards,
> 
> RB
> 
> [1] Sorry I take examples of my own... (Well, the research I once did)
> [2] It was so simplified it was meaningless in my opinion, but I got my
> credits with it...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:geirm@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 8:58 PM
> To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [arch] VM Candidate : JikesRVM 
> http://jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/
> 
> 
> On May 22, 2005, at 9:27 PM, Renaud BECHADE wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > > No. Why would we do this?
> > People tend to be lazy. If they have a bundle with one VM, then
> > they will
> > use that VM, for most of them, IMHO. I seriously doubt we can have
> > people
> > trust an alternative VM if it is not a piece of cake (sort of "with
> > a one
> > liner on the console you are started") to develop with it, and as
> > it is
> > unlikely it will support everything perfectly at the beginning (to
> > convince
> > you let us consider running .NET soft on a Linux/Mono machine, or
> > XSP code
> > on a FreeBSD/mono machine - sometimes it crashes badly, or again
> > freeware
> > support of Flash swf, all of which can have slightly strange behaviors
> > sometimes, if compared with commercial equivalents, so that a
> > development
> > that is not started /from the beginning/ with them might get into
> > troubles)
> > there will be some intensive testing to do on real applications,
> > which might
> > involve some patches on "must-have" packages such as Eclipse / J2EE
> > etc.
> > (including strategies as simple as repackaging with a bit less
> > modules to
> > have it actually run because some funny class is not here)
> 
> 
> It would be great if people would bundle Harmony with stuff (and plan
> to do it w/ Geronimo when that time comes), bit it's way out of scope
> for *this* project to get into the business of reditributing software
> from outside of the ASF.
> 
> geir
> 
> >
> > RB
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:geirm@apache.org]
> > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 7:38 PM
> > To: harmony-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [arch] VM Candidate : JikesRVM http://
> > jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/ <http://jikesrvm.sourceforge.net/>
> >
> >
> > On May 19, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Renaud BECHADE wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Another point that is unrelated, but what about the "packaging" of
> >> the VM?
> >> Do we plan to release it with say Eclipse + Server (JSF + IDE +
> >> object DB or
> >> O/R mapping + HSQL DB)? (IMHO this is good way to legitimate it)
> >>
> >
> > No. Why would we do this?
> >
> > We want our JRE or JDK to be an alternative to the existing JREs and
> > JDKs w/o having people worry about all the cruft.
> >
> > If you had an interest in bundling for some reason, you could of
> > course take the thing and do that elsewhere (or start a separate
> > project here if there was enough support and a decent rationale...)
> >
> > geir
> >
> > --
> > Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> > geirm@apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> 
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> geirm@apache.org
> 
> 
>

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