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From FaeLLe <mrbillcollec...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Backward compatibility
Date Thu, 12 May 2005 01:30:07 GMT
Your going to make him lose his job by suggesting such a thing.

On 5/12/05, Karen Bennet <bennetkl@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Gerry,
> 
> Additional help in testing is always welcome. However,
> 
> your posting makes me wonder why Sun wouldn't enable
> this project to leapfrog whose 4-5 years to a product
> like Tiger by donating the missing pieces. This
> would enable the community to work alongside Sun in
> the development of mustang and dolphin in an
> collaborative development model. I'm not sure if
> feasibility or not
> but you did say if there was anything that you could
> do to help ... maybe an internal Sun employee might
> have a better chance of convincing their employer that
> collaboration around this technology would benefit
> them and potentially get Java development accelerated
> with future ideas.
> 
> P.S. I know there have been many before who have asked
> for this same request; but here's hoping that its
> reconsidered.
> 
> 
> --- Gerry Steele <gegerrytsteelemgmailom> wrote:
> 
> > Hi
> >
> > I actually did seem a bit cynical there.
> >
> > I forgot to mention that if there is anything I can
> > do to help let me know
> > or perhaps I'll keep an eye on the lists. I've
> > experience with the JCJCK
> > other tests so I could be useful in the QA area
> > considering it's quite an
> > esoteric task. I do believe that variety and
> > competition is good in software
> > for everyone. Though I do feel a bit sorry for sun..
> > they put up the money
> > to develop and create the Java world we have now and
> > everyone seems to want
> > it for their own. And they don't exactly ask for a
> > lot from users..... just
> > remember that the nearest competitor costs a small
> > fortune.
> >
> > Another sisidenotes Project Peabody. All those bugs
> > in Mustang that have
> > been bothering you are now open to anyone to submit
> > fixes.
> >
> hthttp/jajavaun.com/developer/tetechnicalArticles2SE/pepeabody
> >
> > And you get a free t-shirt when you contribute!
> >
> > Gerry
> >
> > On 5/12/05, FaFaeLLemrmrbillcollectormgmailom>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Very inintrestingnd well noted writeup sir an
> > insight from a Sun employee
> > > is always a bonus.
> > >
> > > I will for sure followup comments on this article
> > and see what the
> > > community has to say on this post.
> > >
> > > On 5/11/05, Gerry Steele < gegerrytsteelemgmailom>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm a big fan of the Apache foundation but this
> > is one product I'm not
> > > > too
> > > > sure is such a good idea as of yet for reasons
> > several:
> > > >
> > > > >> Deprecated or non deprecated, we want Harmony
> > to pass the TCTCKso
> > > > > >> whatever the TCTCKants us to do, we'll do
> > it.
> > > >
> > > > I hope you understand what sticking to the
> TCTCK> entails. When it comes to
> > > >
> > > > implementing GUI stuff for instance, your
> > platform will have to fully
> > > > copy
> > > > the official JVJVM'swing/AWAWTidgets and all
> > other details in order for
> > > > the
> > > > automation and robot driven tests to pass. The
> > JCJCKetestbaseor tiger is
> > > >
> > > > immense. To get it setup and run is a skill on
> > its own. To get it to
> > > > pass
> > > > all tests takes a serious am mount of tweaking
> > and a nonoteablenowledge
> > > > of
> > > > the jajavatestarness. It will require
> > implementations on things as
> > > > extensive
> > > > as COCORBAnd RMRMIWe would need passive agents,
> > tntnameervers etc.
> > > >
> > > > Also, when running the TCTCKear in mind that
> > you'll have to run the
> > > > harness
> > > > with the Sun VMVM
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure about the particular extent of the
> > tetestsuiterovided with
> > > > the
> > > > TCTCKou guys are talking about (if there is
> > interest can find out more),
> > > > but
> > > > the JCJCKwhich is basically a TCTCKor the entire
> > J2SE jrjrend jdjdkill
> > > > be
> > > > going on impossible to pass for an alternative
> > imimplmentations
> > > > everything
> > > > is written with the Sun JDJDKRJREn mind and test
> > cases are adapted in
> > > > ways
> > > > that will create an infinite unpredictable
> > series of problems when
> > > > trying to
> > > > adapt your code.
> > > >
> > > > Another reason is that I'm not quite sure I see
> > the point. It will take
> > > > 4-5
> > > > years or more to even come close to a product
> > like tiger. Sun are
> > > > already
> > > > working heavily on mustang and dolphin (to a
> > lesser degree on the
> > > > latter).
> > > > As well as this, sun research have many projects
> > looking at the future
> > > > of
> > > > the Java VMVMuch as the Barcelona project which
> > will drastically change
> > > > the
> > > > implementation of the JVJVMFor instance to make
> > it more network
> > > > orientated
> > > > or to improve resource sharing.
> > > >
> > > > The latter things (which are yet to see real sun
> > implementation) might
> > > > be
> > > > something you guys might then want to take
> > advantage of in order to
> > > > leverage
> > > > a selling point of Harmony. Without something
> > like that it's just
> > > > another
> > > > attempt at a VMVMhat will be playing catch-up
> > forever.
> > > >
> > > > Also, don't forget about quality. Sun put a
> > serious amount of money and
> > > > manpower into ensuring the quality and
> > compatibility of the JVJVMA lot
> > > > of
> > > > corporations depend on this. They have a regular
> > update release cycle.
> > > > For
> > > > instance we are currently working on 1.3.1_16,
> > 1.4.2_09, 5.0_04 & 5.0_05
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > In a project of this size some of the the test
> > suites take several days
> > > > to
> > > > run. Some take many many hours of man power. For
> > excessive thoroughness
> > > > there also manual JCJCKnd regression test
> > suites. Which, trust me, will
> > > > not
> > > > be performed by someone who isn't being paid for
> > it. Things like this
> > > > don't
> > > > fit well with the community model.
> > > >
> > > > Another worry I have is that the effort here
> > might be better redirect to
> > > >
> > > > some other project. We already have Java. Even
> > if harmony does make it
> > > > to a
> > > > ususeableelease people will still prefer to use
> > the Sun VMVMIt will be
> > > > the
> > > > platform people build on and it will be the one
> > they trust.
> > > >
> > > > I'll be very interested in how this turns out.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Gerry
> > > >
> > > > 1) speed
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) portability (jajavas claimed to run
> > 'everywhere', but in fact, it
> > > > > runs only on a few operating systems, even
> > fewer for 1.5)
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) coconfigurabilityI might want to tune it
> > differently and, for
> > > > > example, choose different thread/GCGCodels)
> > > > >
> > > > > 4) implementation ststategyin mamacosxmultiple
> > JVJVMshare 80% of their
> > > >
> > > > > memory, and some of Swing is native, therefore
> > feels like the rest of
> > > > > the OS and it's hardware accelerated)
> > > > >
> > > > > 5) internal modularity (we want diversity of
> > implementation to drive
> > > > > innovation in the VMVMpace, both in and out
> > companies and
> >
> === message truncated ===
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