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From Gerry Steele <gerry.ste...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Backward compatibility
Date Wed, 11 May 2005 23:58:32 GMT
Hi

I actually did seem a bit cynical there.

I forgot to mention that if there is anything I can do to help let me know 
or perhaps I'll keep an eye on the lists. I've experience with the JCK & 
other tests so I could be useful in the QA area considering it's quite an 
esoteric task. I do believe that variety and competition is good in software 
for everyone. Though I do feel a bit sorry for sun.. they put up the money 
to develop and create the Java world we have now and everyone seems to want 
it for their own. And they don't exactly ask for a lot from users..... just 
remember that the nearest competitor costs a small fortune.

Another sidenote is Project Peabody. All those bugs in Mustang that have 
been bothering you are now open to anyone to submit fixes. 
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2SE/peabody/

And you get a free t-shirt when you contribute!

Gerry

On 5/12/05, FaeLLe <mrbillcollector@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Very intresting and well noted writeup sir an insight from a Sun employee 
> is always a bonus.
> 
> I will for sure followup comments on this article and see what the 
> community has to say on this post.
> 
> On 5/11/05, Gerry Steele < gerry.steele@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > I'm a big fan of the Apache foundation but this is one product I'm not 
> > too 
> > sure is such a good idea as of yet for reasons several:
> > 
> > >> Deprecated or non deprecated, we want Harmony to pass the TCK, so
> > > >> whatever the TCK wants us to do, we'll do it.
> > 
> > I hope you understand what sticking to the TCK entails. When it comes to 
> > 
> > implementing GUI stuff for instance, your platform will have to fully 
> > copy
> > the official JVM's Swing/AWT widgets and all other details in order for 
> > the
> > automation and robot driven tests to pass. The JCK testbase for tiger is 
> > 
> > immense. To get it setup and run is a skill on its own. To get it to 
> > pass
> > all tests takes a serious am mount of tweaking and a noteable knowledge 
> > of
> > the javatest harness. It will require implementations on things as 
> > extensive 
> > as CORBA and RMI. We would need passive agents, tname servers etc.
> > 
> > Also, when running the TCK bear in mind that you'll have to run the 
> > harness
> > with the Sun VM.
> > 
> > I'm not sure about the particular extent of the testsuite provided with 
> > the 
> > TCK you guys are talking about (if there is interest can find out more), 
> > but
> > the JCK, which is basically a TCK for the entire J2SE jre and jdk will 
> > be
> > going on impossible to pass for an alternative implmentation as 
> > everything 
> > is written with the Sun JDK/JRE in mind and test cases are adapted in 
> > ways
> > that will create an infinite unpredictable series of problems when 
> > trying to
> > adapt your code.
> > 
> > Another reason is that I'm not quite sure I see the point. It will take 
> > 4-5 
> > years or more to even come close to a product like tiger. Sun are 
> > already
> > working heavily on mustang and dolphin (to a lesser degree on the 
> > latter).
> > As well as this, sun research have many projects looking at the future 
> > of 
> > the Java VM such as the Barcelona project which will drastically change 
> > the
> > implementation of the JVM. For instance to make it more network 
> > orientated
> > or to improve resource sharing.
> > 
> > The latter things (which are yet to see real sun implementation) might 
> > be 
> > something you guys might then want to take advantage of in order to 
> > leverage
> > a selling point of Harmony. Without something like that it's just 
> > another
> > attempt at a VM that will be playing catch-up forever.
> > 
> > Also, don't forget about quality. Sun put a serious amount of money and
> > manpower into ensuring the quality and compatibility of the JVM. A lot 
> > of
> > corporations depend on this. They have a regular update release cycle. 
> > For 
> > instance we are currently working on 1.3.1_16, 1.4.2_09, 5.0_04 & 5.0_05
> > .
> > 
> > In a project of this size some of the the test suites take several days 
> > to
> > run. Some take many many hours of man power. For excessive thoroughness 
> > there also manual JCK and regression test suites. Which, trust me, will 
> > not
> > be performed by someone who isn't being paid for it. Things like this 
> > don't
> > fit well with the community model.
> > 
> > Another worry I have is that the effort here might be better redirect to 
> > 
> > some other project. We already have Java. Even if harmony does make it 
> > to a
> > useable release people will still prefer to use the Sun VM. It will be 
> > the
> > platform people build on and it will be the one they trust.
> > 
> > I'll be very interested in how this turns out.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Gerry
> > 
> > 1) speed
> > >
> > > 2) portability (java is claimed to run 'everywhere', but in fact, it
> > > runs only on a few operating systems, even fewer for 1.5)
> > >
> > > 3) configurability (I might want to tune it differently and, for
> > > example, choose different thread/GC models)
> > >
> > > 4) implementation stategy (in macosx, multiple JVMs share 80% of their 
> > 
> > > memory, and some of Swing is native, therefore feels like the rest of
> > > the OS and it's hardware accelerated)
> > >
> > > 5) internal modularity (we want diversity of implementation to drive
> > > innovation in the VM space, both in and out companies and 
> > universities) 
> > >
> > > And, last but not least, if Sun or other vendors that already have JVM
> > > want to stop paying for all that development on their and want to 
> > start
> > > sharing the development costs with the java ecosystem in general and 
> > > with a clear warranty that we will not try to pollute the stream we 
> > all
> > > drink from, therefore want to contribute some of their code to 
> > Harmony,
> > > we will welcome them with open arms.
> > >
> > > -- 
> > > Stefano.
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > --
> > Gerry Steele
> > 
> > x74521/+353-1-8199 521
> > http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/gerrys
> > [ gerry.steele@sun.com OR gerry.steele@gmail.com]
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> www.FaeLLe.com <http://www.FaeLLe.com> 




-- 
Gerry Steele

x74521/+353-1-8199 521
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/gerrys
[gerry.steele@sun.com OR gerry.steele@gmail.com]

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