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From Simon Phipps <webm...@Sun.COM>
Subject Re: Gosling on Harmony
Date Wed, 18 May 2005 14:54:35 GMT
On May 18, 2005, at 05:33, Danese Cooper wrote:

> Much as I admire James, I have to say that the responses from 
> enterprise developers of which he presumably speaks were carefully 
> choreographed by the organizers of JavaONE (who are of course Sun 
> employees).
I'm sorry, I respectfully disagree. The answer that Tim got to his 
question about whether the audience wanted to see Java open source at 
JavaOne was exactly the answer you would expect from that audience, 
actually for reasons James regularly explains. No choreography needed. 
Frankly, the people who organised that debate wouldn't have been able 
to anyway.

>   Its the old story...you can't ask a question without influencing the 
> answer.  When Sun asks they often hear what they want to hear.  When 
> Tim O'Reilly asked the same question a month later at OSCON he got the 
> opposite answer (of course).
So are you accusing ORM of choreographing the results too? Again, ask a 
large audience of pro-FOSS people (most of whom are at best ambivalent 
towards Java) and this is the answer you'd expect.

I don't believe either of these examples cast any light on the 
situation. The Java world needs open source JREs because there's a 
large F/OSS community that will find it hard to engage without them, 
and we need each other. The Open Source world needs the Java world 
because without it deployment will be a nightmare for non-hackers - at 
least until some new-order monopolist creates uniformity. Neither 
community is likely to embrace the philosophies of the other in the 
contexts described. It will take bridge-building and expressions of 
trust.

>   I spent 6 years at Sun asking the question every chance I got and 
> probably because of who I am I heard clear support for a *compatible* 
> open J2SE...which is what Harmony is trying to be (and why I'm a 
> supporter) :-)...

Likewise, it continues to be my passion, which is why I too am a 
Harmony supporter, even if I didn't get the chance to put my name to 
the original list. In particular I support Harmony because for the 
first time there is the real chance of all parties to the philosophical 
debate described above to at last meet on an equal footing and build 
bridges that benefit them all.

> In my experience, James is a fair-minded guy and I believe that a 
> strong, ethical and hard-working Harmony community is bound to impress 
> him over time.

I completely agree with this. I regret that James showed how out of 
touch he was with real open source practice (crazy answer about 
put-backs), but my interactions with him (most recently at Cafe Brasil 
where he also met with Dalibor and Geir) suggest that he's interested 
in code alone, not in either Sun of FOSS politics, and that positive 
results will get positive support.

Simon

>
> Danese (still speaking on my own and neither on behalf of my former 
> nor my current employer)
>
> On May 17, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Ahmed Saad wrote:
>
>> The "clear need" that Magnusson cites is anything but clear to 
>> Gosling, who
>> says Sun has received negative response from the enterprise 
>> development
>> community regarding the idea of open-source Java."
>>
>> welcome to the matrix, guys ;)
>>
>> On 5/17/05, Tomer Barletz <tomer_b@regard.co.il> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/28125?trk=DXRSS_JAVA
>>>
>>> Looks like Doc java is pretty upset...
>>>
>>
>


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