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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [arch] The Third Way : C/C++ and Java and lets go forward
Date Tue, 24 May 2005 02:34:58 GMT

On May 23, 2005, at 10:31 PM, Peter Donald wrote:

> Peter Donald wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Steve Blackburn wrote:
>>>> Lets get moving.  Comments?
>>> Respectfully, I think this would be a mistake.  I think it would  
>>> be a major error to start coding a VM core until there was more  
>>> clarity about what we are doing and what the core would require.
>> You could be right in that it is a "technical" mistake but in the  
>> long wrong it may prove not to be useful for helping to kick start
> erg ... should be
> ...but in the long wrong it may prove to be useful for helping to  
> kick start...

I still have no clue what "long wrong" means.  Try again?  :)


>> the community and thus not a "community" mistake. Discussion about  
>> abstract concepts and implementation strategies with no concrete  
>> code that people can look at and play with can lead to never  
>> ending discussions that never seem to progress. Give people some  
>> code and some leeway to experiment for themselves and they are  
>> much more likely  to come around to understanding the problem and  
>> thus being able to agree on a way forward. Paraphrasing what was  
>> said earlier in this mailing list "crap code and good ideas will  
>> lead to a good community while other combinations may not".
>> Experimenting with a codebase will at least give people a feel for  
>> other members of the community and how they cut code. This will be  
>> worth it even if the entire codebase gets thrown out or rewritten  
>> from scratch. Some of the people here are unlikely to be swayed  
>> from "C/C++ for VM" crowd  with just words - code which they can  
>> profile and generate performance statistics with is much more  
>> likely to convince them. Don't get me wrong - discussion is good  
>> and you have convinced me (who was firmly in the "C for VM" camp)  
>> that Java In Java is a good approach - I would love to hear more  
>> about it (especially how synchronization, volatile and monitors  
>> could be plugged in) but there has been enough talk and probably a  
>> good time for action to start ;)
>> So I agree with you that this move may be a "technical mistake"  
>> but I would put forth the idea that it may be a bigger "community  
>> mistake" if something concrete does not start soon. FWIW I am not  
>> involved with Apache or any of the VM/Classpath projects but I  
>> suspect that this is a way forward that would be useful using the  
>> "Apache way".
>>> When a VM is built in Java, the only need for C/C++ is for direct  
>>> interaction with the OS (one modest file of C code with  
>>> interfaces to the most basic OS functionality), and for  
>>> bootstrapping (another OS-specific file of C code plus about a  
>>> dozen of lines of assembler).
>> I guess I was under the wrong impression aswell. I thought that  
>> JRVM required another JVM during build to compile its own codebase  
>> and create an executable image. JRVM would then use this image  
>> during its execution. Could we use a simple interpreter for this  
>> initial stage? Or am I completely off base.
>>> I am very excited about all of the technology that this project  
>>> is bringing out.  I think JamVM looks outstanding, but I think it  
>>> would be a serious error to take it as the core for Harmony.  It  
>>> was not *designed* with our goals in mind.  We need to understand  
>>> where the value in JamVM (and all other candidates) is, and then  
>>> maximize our leverage on that in the Harmony VM, whether it be  
>>> through an entire VM (unlikely), components (I hope so), designs  
>>> (I am sure), or mechanisms (certainly).
>> I don't disagree with you but I guess I think it would be more  
>> useful to place community "correctnes" over technical "correctnes"  
>> at the begining. Once a group is working together they should be  
>> able to migrate to JRVM or whatever could be used as the bases.
>> -- 
>> Cheers,
>> Peter Donald
>> "The only way to get rid of a temptation is
>> to yield to it." - Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

Geir Magnusson Jr                                  +1-203-665-6437

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