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From "Santhosh Srinivasan" <...@yahoo-inc.com>
Subject RE: Begin a discussion about Pig as a top level project
Date Mon, 05 Apr 2010 19:22:19 GMT
"Given that, do you think it makes  
sense to say that Pig stays a subproject for now, but if it someday  
grows beyond Hadoop only it becomes a TLP?  I could agree to that  
stance."

Bingo!

Santhosh 

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Gates [mailto:gates@yahoo-inc.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 11:37 AM
To: pig-dev@hadoop.apache.org
Subject: Re: Begin a discussion about Pig as a top level project

Prognostication is a difficult business.  Of course I'd love it if  
someday there is an ISO Pig Latin committee (with meetings in cool  
exotic places) deciding the official standard for Pig Latin.  But that  
seems like saying in your start up's business plan, "When we reach  
Google's size, then we'll do x".  If there ever is an ISO Pig Latin  
standard it will be years off.

As others have noted, staying tight to Hadoop now has many advantages,  
both in technical and adoption terms.  Hence my advocacy of keeping  
Pig Latin Hadoop agnostic while tightly integrating the backend.   
Which is to say that in my view, Pig is Hadoop specific now, but there  
may come a day when that is no longer true.   Whether Pig will ever  
move past just running on Hadoop to running in other parallel systems  
won't be known for years to come.  Given that, do you think it makes  
sense to say that Pig stays a subproject for now, but if it someday  
grows beyond Hadoop only it becomes a TLP?  I could agree to that  
stance.

Alan.

On Apr 3, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Santhosh Srinivasan wrote:

> I see this as a multi-part question. Looking back at some of the
> significant roadmap/existential questions asked in the last 12  
> months, I
> see the following:
>
> 1. With the introduction of SQL, what is the philosophy of Pig (I sent
> an email about this approximately 9 months ago)
> 2. What is the approach to support backward compatibility in Pig (Alan
> had sent an email about this 3 months ago)
> 3. Should Pig be a TLP (the current email thread).
>
> Here is my take on answering the aforementioned questions.
>
> The initial philosophy of Pig was to be backend agnostic. It was
> designed as a data flow language. Whenever a new language is designed,
> the syntax and semantics of the language have to be laid out. The  
> syntax
> is usually captured in the form of a BNF grammar. The semantics are
> defined by the language creators. Backward compatibility is then a
> question of holding true to the syntax and semantics. With Pig, in
> addition to the language, the Java APIs were exposed to customers to
> implement UDFs (load/store/filter/grouping/row transformation etc),
> provision looping since the language does not support looping  
> constructs
> and also support a programmatic mode of access. Backward compatibility
> in this context is to support API versioning.
>
> Do we still intend to position as a data flow language that is backend
> agnostic? If the answer is yes, then there is a strong case for making
> Pig a TLP.
>
> Are we influenced by Hadoop? A big YES! The reason Pig chose to  
> become a
> Hadoop sub-project was to ride the Hadoop popularity wave. As a
> consequence, we chose to be heavily influenced by the Hadoop roadmap.
>
> Like a good lawyer, I also have rebuttals to Alan's questions :)
>
> 1. Search engine popularity - We can discuss this with the Hadoop team
> and still retain links to TLP's that are coupled (loosely or tightly).
> 2. Explicit connection to Hadoop - I see this as logical connection  
> v/s
> physical connection. Today, we are physically connected as a
> sub-project. Becoming a TLP, will not increase/decrease our  
> influence on
> the Hadoop community (think Logical, Physical and MR Layers :)
> 3. Philosophy - I have already talked about this. The tight coupling  
> is
> by choice. If Pig continues to be a data flow language with clear  
> syntax
> and semantics then someone can implement Pig on top of a different
> backend. Do we intend to take this approach?
>
> I just wanted to offer a different opinion to this thread. I strongly
> believe that we should think about the original philosophy. Will we  
> have
> a Pig standards committee that will decide on the changes to the
> language (think C/C++) if there are multiple backend implementations?
>
> I will reserve my vote based on the outcome of the philosophy and
> backward compatibility discussions. If we decide that Pig will be
> treated and maintained like a true language with clear syntax and
> semantics then we have a strong case to make it into a TLP. If not, we
> should retain our existing ties to Hadoop and make Pig into a data  
> flow
> language for Hadoop.
>
> Santhosh
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thejas Nair [mailto:tejas@yahoo-inc.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 4:08 PM
> To: pig-dev@hadoop.apache.org; Dmitriy Ryaboy
> Subject: Re: Begin a discussion about Pig as a top level project
>
> I agree with Alan and Dmitriy - Pig is tightly coupled with hadoop,  
> and
> heavily influenced by its roadmap. I think it makes sense to  
> continue as
> a sub-project of hadoop.
>
> -Thejas
>
>
>
> On 3/31/10 4:04 PM, "Dmitriy Ryaboy" <dvryaboy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Over time, Pig is increasing its coupling to Hadoop (for good
>> reasons), rather than decreasing it. If and when Pig becomes a viable
>> entity without hadoop around, it might make sense as a TLP. As is, I
>> think becoming a TLP will only introduce unnecessary administrative
> and bureaucratic headaches.
>> So my vote is also -1.
>>
>> -Dmitriy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Alan Gates <gates@yahoo-inc.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>> So far I haven't seen any feedback on this.  Apache has asked the
>>> Hadoop PMC to submit input in April on whether some subprojects
>>> should be promoted to TLPs.  We, the Pig community, need to give
>>> feedback to the Hadoop PMC on how we feel about this.  Please make
> your voice heard.
>>>
>>> So now I'll head my own call and give my thoughts on it.
>>>
>>> The biggest advantage I see to being a TLP is a direct connection to
>>> Apache.  Right now all of the Pig team's interaction with Apache is
>>> through the Hadoop PMC.  Being directly connected to Apache would
>>> benefit Pig team members who would have a better view into Apache.
>>> It would also raise our profile in Apache and thus make other
> projects more aware of us.
>>>
>>> However, I am concerned about loosing Pig's explicit connection to
> Hadoop.
>>> This concern has a couple of dimensions.  One, Hadoop and MapReduce
>>> are the current flavor of the month in computing.  Given that Pig
>>> shares a name with the common farm animal, it's hard to be sure  
>>> based
> on search statistics.
>>> But Google trends shows that "hadoop" is searched on much more
>>> frequently than "hadoop pig" or "apache pig" (see
>>> http://www.google.com/trends?q=hadoop%2Chadoop+pig).  I am guessing
>>> that most Pig users come from Hadoop users who discover Pig via
> Hadoop's website.
>>> Loosing that subproject tab on Hadoop's front page may radically
>>> lower the number of users coming to Pig to check out our project.  I
>>> would argue that this benefits Hadoop as well, since high level
>>> languages like Pig Latin have the potential to greatly extend the
> user base and usability of Hadoop.
>>>
>>> Two, being explicitly connected to Hadoop keeps our two communities
>>> aware of each others needs.  There are features proposed for MR that
>>> would greatly help Pig.  By staying in the Hadoop community Pig is
>>> better positioned to advocate for and help implement and test those
>>> features.  The response to this will be that Pig developers can  
>>> still
>
>>> subscribe to Hadoop mailing lists, submit patches, etc.  That is,
>>> they can still be part of the Hadoop community.  Which reinforces my
>>> point that it makes more sense to leave Pig in the Hadoop community
>>> since Pig developers will need to be part of that community anyway.
>>>
>>> Finally, philosophically it makes sense to me that projects that are
>>> tightly connected belong together.  It strikes me as strange to have
>>> Pig as a TLP completely dependent on another TLP.  Hadoop was
>>> originally a subproject of Lucene.  It moved out to be a TLP when it
>>> became obvious that Hadoop had become independent of and useful  
>>> apart
>
>>> from Lucene.  Pig is not in that position relative to Hadoop.
>>>
>>> So, I'm -1 on Pig moving out.  But this is a soft -1.  I'm open to
>>> being persuaded that I'm wrong or my concerns can be addressed while
>>> still having Pig as a TLP.
>>>
>>> Alan.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 19, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Alan Gates wrote:
>>>
>>> You have probably heard by now that there is a discussion going on
>>> in the
>>>> Hadoop PMC as to whether a number of the subprojects (Hbase, Avro,
>>>> Zookeeper, Hive, and Pig) should move out from under the Hadoop
>>>> umbrella and become top level Apache projects (TLP).  This
>>>> discussion has picked up recently since the Apache board has  
>>>> clearly
>
>>>> communicated to the Hadoop PMC that it is concerned that Hadoop is
>>>> acting as an umbrella project with many disjoint subprojects
>>>> underneath it.  They are concerned that this gives Apache little
>>>> insight into the health and happenings of the subproject  
>>>> communities
>
>>>> which in turn means Apache cannot properly mentor those  
>>>> communities.
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of this email is to start a discussion within the Pig
>>>> community about this topic.  Let me cover first what becoming TLP
>>>> would mean for Pig, and then I'll go into what options I think we  
>>>> as
> a community have.
>>>>
>>>> Becoming a TLP would mean that Pig would itself have a PMC that
>>>> would report directly to the Apache board.  Who would be on the PMC
>>>> would be something we as a community would need to decide.  Common
>>>> options would be to say all active committers are on the PMC, or  
>>>> all
>
>>>> active committers who have been a committer for at least a year.   
>>>> We
>
>>>> would also need to elect a chair of the PMC.  This lucky person
>>>> would have no additional power, but would have the additional
>>>> responsibility of writing quarterly reports on Pig's status for
>>>> Apache board meetings, as well as coordinating with Apache to get
>>>> accounts for new  committers, etc.  For more information see
>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
>>>>
>>>> Becoming a TLP would not mean that we are ostracized from the  
>>>> Hadoop
>
>>>> community.  We would continue to be invited to Hadoop Summits,  
>>>> HUGs,
> etc.
>>>> Since all Pig developers and users are by definition Hadoop users,
>>>> we would continue to be a strong presence in the Hadoop community.
>>>>
>>>> I see three ways that we as a community can respond to this:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Say yes, we want to be a TLP now.
>>>> 2) Say yes, we want to be a TLP, but not yet.  We feel we need more
>>>> time to mature.  If we choose this option we need to be able to
>>>> clearly articulate how much time we need and what we hope to see
>>>> change in that time.
>>>> 3) Say no, we feel the benefits for us staying with Hadoop outweigh
>>>> the drawbacks of being a disjoint subproject.  If we choose this,  
>>>> we
>
>>>> need to be able to say exactly what those benefits are and why we
>>>> feel they will be compromised by leaving the Hadoop project.
>>>>
>>>> There may other options that I haven't thought of.  Please feel  
>>>> free
>
>>>> to suggest any you think of.
>>>>
>>>> Questions?  Thoughts?  Let the discussion begin.
>>>>
>>>> Alan.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>


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